Who would you give the NL MVP to?

[the 'stache]

Duwal, I'm not underestimating Posey's contribution behind the plate. If you look back through baseball history, catchers have won a LOT of MVPs because they are highly valued on great teams-Yogi Berra won 3 iirc. Roy Campanella, Elston Howard, Johnny Bench, and more recently Joe Mauer (though I don't know offhand how good the Twins were that year). I have a lot of respect for catchers. I collect their rookie cards, too (in the last 3 months, I've bought several up-and-coming catchers: Devin Mesoracos, Travis D'Arnaud, Jonathan Lucroy, Yasmani Grandal to name a few). But I don't know if that contribution is enough to make up the big offensive differential. He might call a really good game (but I do think he gets a lot of help from Cain, Bumgarner and Lincecum here), but he's not outstanding defensively. I think Yadier Molina is actually a more complete catcher.

If Posey won the MVP, I would be the first guy here to post a congratulation on his thread. I really like him a lot, and I'll be adding his 2008 Bowman Chrome auto card to my collection soon (that and Joe Mauer's 2002 chrome auto are next on my list after the Bryce Harper chrome auto). The guy's old school, and having the kind of season he's having after coming back from that horrific injury last year is a testament to just how great he is. But while he might stand around a lot between pitches, Braun is much improved in the outfield, too.

I'm going to argue for my guy, but this is a year that no matter who wins it (Braun, Posey or McCutchen), I'm going to really like the winner. I'm a big Pirates fan, and I really love the city of San Francisco (my aunt used to live there, and I'd come visit often).

There's also a lot of baseball to be played yet, 22 games to go. Anything can happen.

[GiantsSB42Champs]

Im also not supporting Braun because he's a juicer and instead of owning up to it tried to blame his positive on the tester.

[the 'stache]

Why would he own up to something he didn't do?

I just don't get it. How do people just brush off the mishandling of his sample as a "technicality". You can't take a pee sample, let it sit out for 48 hours in a Tupperware container (not refrigerated), and expect that the sample will be a-ok.

Braun's team took clean samples, subjected them to the identical conditions, and guess what. The same elevated levels that occurred with the sample in question. Also, the sample with the elevated levels did not show a steroid, or a PED. It showed a banned substance.

Braun won his appeal for a reason. Not because of some flimsy technicality. He's having the best season of his career under intense scrutiny from everybody...people booing him everywhere he goes. Why do you think that is? Because it doesn't bother him. He knows he's been vindicated, and the people that don't have an agenda to hate Braun know, too, that he's clean. MLB didn't prove their case. Braun did. Stop with the "Braun cheated" BS people, because he didn't.

[metsmagic18]

You have to remember that whether or not he cheated, the writers are making the choices here. Baseball writers have kept guys out of the HOF because of "possible steroid use". Braun is not the favorite by a landslide, so it is likely that some guys would choose a Posey, (who does deserve it- he brings a lot to the table- he called a perfect game, hits, fields... does it all) based on the fact that it's a safer choice. Just voicing my opinion.

[pwaldo]

As of right now Buster Posey has an OPS+ of 165. Yogi Berra won 3 MVPs and never did that. Roy Campanella won 3 MVPs and never did that. In fact there aren't many catchers who have. You have a weak field (especially if you don't include Braun) and it looks like the Giants will make the playoffs whereas the other teams these guys are on won't. Posey will win it in an almost winner by default fashion unless the Giants don't make the playoffs.

[duwal]

As of right now Buster Posey has an OPS+ of 165. Yogi Berra won 3 MVPs and never did that. Roy Campanella won 3 MVPs and never did that. In fact there aren't many catchers who have. You have a weak field (especially if you don't include Braun) and it looks like the Giants will make the playoffs whereas the other teams these guys are on won't. Posey will win it in an almost winner by default fashion unless the Giants don't make the playoffs.

and that is downright impressive especially with considering the ballpark he calls home too. If he was in an average hitter park he'd be hitting 30 homeruns a year. He has 14 on the road this year and just hit his 6th at home yesterday

[the 'stache]

As of right now Buster Posey has an OPS+ of 165. Yogi Berra won 3 MVPs and never did that. Roy Campanella won 3 MVPs and never did that. In fact there aren't many catchers who have. You have a weak field (especially if you don't include Braun) and it looks like the Giants will make the playoffs whereas the other teams these guys are on won't. Posey will win it in an almost winner by default fashion unless the Giants don't make the playoffs.

Different era.

Mike Piazza had an OPS+ of 172 in 1995 for the first place Los Angeles Dodgers, and was 4th in the MVP. Hideo Nomo was 4th in the Cy Young, and Ramon Martinez was 5th. Piazza had a 166 OPS+ in 1996, and finished second. In 1997, he had perhaps the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher, batting .362 with 40 HR and 124 RBI and a 185 OPS+. They won 88 games, finishing second, and yet Larry Walker beat him for the MVP. The Rockies finished behind the Dodgers.

OPS+ is a bogus calculation that unfairly penalizes Braun because he plays at Miller Park. Posey doesn't hit the ball any further than Braun. In fact, Braun's average true distance is slightly greater than Posey's.

Braun 406.2
Posey 405.3

OPS + assumes that Braun wouldn't be hitting as many home runs if he weren't playing in Milwaukee. That's a load of you-know-what.

The worst park for home runs by righthanded batters is Citi Field, New York. A home run is hit there once every 52.7 at bats accodring to Baseball America's magazine (March 19th to April 1, 2012). You know how many of Braun's 38 home runs would have gone out of PNC Park this year? Every single one

AT&T Park in San Francisco? 36 of the 38 home runs he hit would have gone out there.

Ryan Braun hit two home runs in a game at mammoth Target Field in Minnesota. One went out to left-center field 413 feet. A second went to dead center at 421 feet. Another he hit out in the same series went out to the right field seats, 383 feet. Target Field is the hardest park in the majors to hit a home run for left handed hitters. Braun hit it out to his opposite field.

What about Petco Field in San Diego? Nobody has ever hit 3 home runs in a game there....well, nobody had until Braun did it.

Ryan Braun crushes the ball, and the assertion that he's somehow getting a bonus by playing in Milwaukee is absurd.

[gladdyontherise]

Different era.

Mike Piazza had an OPS+ of 172 in 1995 for the first place Los Angeles Dodgers, and was 4th in the MVP. Hideo Nomo was 4th in the Cy Young, and Ramon Martinez was 5th. Piazza had a 166 OPS+ in 1996, and finished second. In 1997, he had perhaps the greatest offensive season ever for a catcher, batting .362 with 40 HR and 124 RBI and a 185 OPS+. They won 88 games, finishing second, and yet Larry Walker beat him for the MVP. The Rockies finished behind the Dodgers.

OPS+ is a bogus calculation that unfairly penalizes Braun because he plays at Miller Park. Posey doesn't hit the ball any further than Braun. In fact, Braun's average true distance is slightly greater than Posey's.

Braun 406.2
Posey 405.3

OPS + assumes that Braun wouldn't be hitting as many home runs if he weren't playing in Milwaukee. That's a load of you-know-what.

The worst park for home runs by righthanded batters is Citi Field, New York. A home run is hit there once every 52.7 at bats accodring to Baseball America's magazine (March 19th to April 1, 2012). You know how many of Braun's 38 home runs would have gone out of PNC Park this year? Every single one

AT&T Park in San Francisco? 36 of the 38 home runs he hit would have gone out there.

Ryan Braun hit two home runs in a game at mammoth Target Field in Minnesota. One went out to left-center field 413 feet. A second went to dead center at 421 feet. Another he hit out in the same series went out to the right field seats, 383 feet. Target Field is the hardest park in the majors to hit a home run for left handed hitters. Braun hit it out to his opposite field.

What about Petco Field in San Diego? Nobody has ever hit 3 home runs in a game there....well, nobody had until Braun did it.

Ryan Braun crushes the ball, and the assertion that he's somehow getting a bonus by playing in Milwaukee is absurd.

OPS+ is a "bogus stat"? Why is that?

It generalizes the park factor. Braun plays in a bandbox (as do other players, this doesn't go just for him), his numbers are almost likely to be slightly inflated. It's great his average home run distance is farther, but don't you think there are some homers mixed in that wouldn't go out if he played for the Giants, and if Posey played for the Brewers, a few that were outs would become home runs?

Come on, every player that hits in a bandbox (Yankee Stadium, Miller Park, US Cellular Field, etc) is getting a "bonus" because they play with smaller dimensions, and in some cases (like Yankee Stadium), there is a ridiculous jet stream that carries the ball.

And being a fan of a park that can be hitter friendly and pitcher friendly at the same time, I wish my favorite players could hit in a bandbox 81 times a year just to see what their numbers would be. I've never seen a guy like Miguel Cabrera hit so many 400+ foot outs before.

[duwal]

The worst park for home runs by righthanded batters is Citi Field, New York. A home run is hit there once every 52.7 at bats accodring to Baseball America's magazine (March 19th to April 1, 2012). You know how many of Braun's 38 home runs would have gone out of PNC Park this year? Every single one

AT&T Park in San Francisco? 36 of the 38 home runs he hit would have gone out there.

Ryan Braun hit two home runs in a game at mammoth Target Field in Minnesota. One went out to left-center field 413 feet. A second went to dead center at 421 feet. Another he hit out in the same series went out to the right field seats, 383 feet. Target Field is the hardest park in the majors to hit a home run for left handed hitters. Braun hit it out to his opposite field.

What about Petco Field in San Diego? Nobody has ever hit 3 home runs in a game there....well, nobody had until Braun did it.

Ryan Braun crushes the ball, and the assertion that he's somehow getting a bonus by playing in Milwaukee is absurd.

It's more absurd to just take someone's distance homerun totals and just supplant them to another park and say that those same homeruns would still reach over the fence. You might not be accounting for wind current or less carry with nighttime play and outdoor elements. In the case of AT&T Park you have to deal with the wind and wetness from the coast. Guaranteed a fair amount of Braun's homeruns would have fallen just short and been either an out or a double/triple. Left center is 384, right center is 421. The shortest distance to home place is right corner which is 309 but that is offset with a 20 foot wall. He launches the ball into the air with a 15 mile per hour wind coming in and most can guess what could happen. There is a reason why Posey's road power stats are virtually the same as Braun's while at home he's just been able to get 6 over.

Posey on the road: 249 ab, 15 doubles, 15 homeruns, 55 rbi's, .317 avg
Braun on the road: 264 ab, 15 doubles, 16 homeruns, 44 rbi's, .311 avg

Posey at home: 212 ab, 14 doubles, 6 homeruns, 34 rbi's, .344 avg
Braun at home: 253 ab, 14 doubles, 22 homeruns, 56 rbi's, .312 avg

[baseballboy2]

LOL @ all the Buster Posey love. Braun has twice as many home runs. His OPS is 67 points higher. Braun has 14 more RBI, 28 more runs scored. The only thing Posey is doing better is his batting average, and that's only 13 points.

That's fine and dandy that Braun is having another great season, but the Brewers stink this year. There isn't much "value" in a guy who is on a bad team. Posey should be the MVP, no doubt. McCutchen has done nothing since the tail end of July, which largely explains why that team has fallen out of contention. To be honest, the National League has been weak offensively across the board this year. I'll give Braun the benefit of the doubt and stick him 3rd or 4th on my list for MVPs, but certainly not at the top.