Who would you give the NL MVP to?

[gladdyontherise]

I don't know why you're trying to convince me Braun should be the MVP this year because I've already agreed with that, I just know he won't, and that's for multiple reasons. However, I don't agree with changing criteria just so it fits your guys case over someone elses. You used the same arguement for Braun this year, against Kemp last year.

[sanfran22]

Not at all. I read several articles last year where the authors (some of them voters) stated that the player needed to be in the playoff race with a realistic chance to make the playoffs. So, no, I'm not looking to have it "both ways". Last year, two players both had outstanding seasons. Both put up Triple Crown type numbers. One player made the playoffs, one player was out of the race two months into the season. The Dodgers had zero chance of making the playoffs. That tipped it to Braun's favor.

This year, the Brewers aren't doing as well, but they were 1.5 games out of the playoffs with 10 games left in the season. They were playing meaningful baseball in the context of post season aspirations, something Kemp did not do. And nobody is putting up the same numbers that Braun is. McCutchen was the MVP favorite for a while as his team was contending. They fell off a cliff, as did his numbers. He's rebounded nicely in the last two weeks, but the Pirates are going to finish below .500 again. A .330 AVG, 30 HR isn't going to do it on a sub .500 team.

As far as Posey goes, the Giants have or soon will clench the NL West. He's had a great year, but his offensive numbers are not close to Braun's. Average is higher, RBI are close, HR are not. And this "he plays the hardest position in baseball" narrative that people so often like to point out...well, he's an average defender at best. Braun actually has a higher fielding average (4.0) than Posey does (2.5) per fangraphs. And all this talk about Cabrera's Triple Crown run, Braun's not too far off a triple crown himself. He won't get it because his average isn't high enough (.319, and the NL leader is at .333), but he leads in HR and RBI. And SLG, and OPS.

Posey doesn't lead the NL in a single category.
Braun leads in six (HR, RBI, SLG, OPS, XBH, TB), and if you include sabermetrics, 8 (isolated and secondary power).

Also, according to fangraphs:

Ryan Braun 8.1 WAR
Buster Posey 7.0 WAR

First off, I don't think anyone on here would have a problem if any of the top 3 won the award. They are all worthy in one way or another.
To compare Posey in the field to Braun is just stupid. Put Braun behind the plate and come talk to me. You are also talking about a corner outfielder to a catcher batting wise. How many catchers these days hit .330/20/100? Poseys value to his team is immeasurable.
Like I said, I have no problem with any of them winning, but Posey made the difference on his team and drove them to the playoffs.

[sanfran22]

On a side note, who the heck even considered Kemp or votto??? LOL.......

[gladdyontherise]

First off, I don't think anyone on here would have a problem if any of the top 3 won the award. They are all worthy in one way or another.
To compare Posey in the field to Braun is just stupid. Put Braun behind the plate and come talk to me. You are also talking about a corner outfielder to a catcher batting wise. How many catchers these days hit .330/20/100? Poseys value to his team is immeasurable.
Like I said, I have no problem with any of them winning, but Posey made the difference on his team and drove them to the playoffs.

I'd say Yadier Molina is a more valuable catcher, but he won't win the award because he has no narrative like Posey does.

[nadeau01_johnson48]

I'd give it to any of those guys before Braun, since those other four haven't tested positive for PED's.

[the 'stache]

I'd give it to any of those guys before Braun, since those other four haven't tested positive for PED's.

Braun won his appeal. The whole thing should have never even be made public. Das sided with Braun's team because they proved their case, not because of some stupid technicality.

And by the way, the test in question showed a banned substance, not a steroid or ped.

[the 'stache]

You used the same arguement for Braun this year, against Kemp last year.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just questioning why you can't see the difference between last year and this year.

Last year: two contenders. Two players with Triple Crown numbers. One made the playoffs, one was on a team nowhere near contending for a playoff spot.
This year: two contenders. One on a playoff team with. Another on a team contending for a playoff spot until the last week of the season with vastly superior numbers.

[the 'stache]

How many catchers these days hit .330/20/100? Poseys value to his team is immeasurable.

How many players hit have 40 home runs, stolen 30 bases, and led the league in RBI? Since it's only happened once in history (Hank Aaron in 1964), I'd say that's a little rarer than what Posey is doing.

By the way, Mike Piazza put up vastly superior numbers multiple times as a catcher on a playoff team. He never won the MVP.

I like Posey, but he's not deserving of the MVP. Braun is going to lead the NL in HR, RBI, SLG, OPS, he's going to finish 4th or 5th in batting. He's 40/30.

As far as fielding goes, Posey has allowed the most stolen bases (85), has the second worst caught stealing % in the NL (29.8%).

Braun, though he only plays a corner outfielder, has the second best range factor of all NL left fielders.

And WAR, which includes the total contributions of a player to his team (hitting, base running, defense, etc), has Braun way, way above Posey.

From Fangraphs:

MLB WAR:

Mike Trout: 9.4
Ryan Braun 8.2
Andrew McCutchen 7.6
David Wright 7.3
Buster Posey 7.0

There's no comparison. All things factored in, Ryan Braun is by far the best in the NL.
I like Posey, but he is not deserving of the MVP.

[the 'stache]

Catcher comparison:

Mike Piazza 1997 (Dodgers 88-74, 2nd in NL West): 104 runs, 201 hits, 32 doubles, 40 HR, 124 RBI, .362 AVG, 1.070 OPS. 2nd in MVP
Buster Posey 2012 (Giants 91-65, 1st in NL West): 75 runs, 171 hits, 37 doubles, 23 HR, 100 RBI, .333 AVG, .944 OPS

Piazza with vastly superior numbers, on a contending team, was only second in the MVP.

Piazza in 1995, on a first place team (Dodgers, 78-66): 32 HR, 93 RBI, .346 AVG. 4th in MVP

Now, compare Posey to Braun in 2012:
Buster Posey 2012 (Giants 91-65, 1st in NL West): 75 runs, 171 hits, 37 doubles, 23 HR, 100 RBI, .333 AVG, .944 OPS
Ryan Braun 2012 (Brewers 80-77, 3rd in NL Central): 104 runs, 185 hits, 35 doubles, 41 HR, 112 RBI, 30 SB, .993 OPS

There's no comparison between the two.

[duwal]

There shouldn't even be any discussion about this. Posey and McCutchen are having nice years, but Ryan Braun is CLEARLY the best player in the National League. And it's not even close.

.318 AVG 5th in NL
103 runs 2nd in NL
182 hits 3rd in NL
41 HR 1st in NL
110 RBI 1st in NL
.391 OBP 5th in NL
.603 SLG 1st in NL
.995 OPS 1st in NL
345 bases 1st in NL
78 XBH 1st in NL
Sabermetrics??
130.8 runs created 1st in NL
8.55 runs created per 27 outs 1st in NL
.285 isolated power 1st in NL
.430 secondary average 1st in NL

It's silly to even discuss this. Ryan Braun is the NL MVP.

yes, Braun is the best player in the NL, he however is not the most valuable player in the league for reasons many of us have discussed at length with you. But that's fine, you believe what you want to and the majority of us will agree it should be Posey