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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NY Sports Teams View Post
    When he was making the case for Trout did he mention that Trout had 41 more strikeouts in 63 fewer AB's?

    ...Rick
    No, but he did mention that Cabrera led the majors with 28 GIDP, and Trout only had 7.
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lambeausouth View Post
    No, but he did mention that Cabrera led the majors with 28 GIDP, and Trout only had 7.
    If we're putting stock into GIDP's, then we're putting as much stock into RBIs, right?
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  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by gladdyontherise View Post
    Yea, John Lowe of the Detroit Free Press, he also had Jeter 3rd I think. Nobody is really sure what in the world he was doing with his ballot.
    Jeter should've been a top 5 finalist rather than Cano.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by baseballboy2 View Post
    Jeter should've been a top 5 finalist rather than Cano.
    I couldn't disagree more. The only thing Jeter has going for him is a bunch of narratives.
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by lambeausouth View Post
    No, but he did mention that Cabrera led the majors with 28 GIDP, and Trout only had 7.
    So according to my math since he grounded into 21 more double plays which equates to 42 more outs. Since Trout had 41 more strikeouts that evens things out on that front. Cabrera beat Trout in average, home runs and RBI's so I'd give a big edge to Cabrera. Did he also mention that Cabrera outhit Trout .420 to .286 with runners in scoring position with 2 out, along with Cabrera outhitting Trout .356 to .324 with runners in scoring position. Hitting .286 with runners in scoring position with 2 outs is very mediocre. It does not take a rocket scientist to see who the clear cut winner should have been and is.

    ...Rick
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  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by gladdyontherise View Post
    Yea, John Lowe of the Detroit Free Press, he also had Jeter 3rd I think. Nobody is really sure what in the world he was doing with his ballot.
    Kinda really bad when you consider the voting for the MVP was done before the postseason....I could probably name 10 Yankees who were more important than Ibanez during the regular season.
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by NY Sports Teams View Post
    So according to my math since he grounded into 21 more double plays which equates to 42 more outs. Since Trout had 41 more strikeouts that evens things out on that front. Cabrera beat Trout in average, home runs and RBI's so I'd give a big edge to Cabrera. Did he also mention that Cabrera outhit Trout .420 to .286 with runners in scoring position with 2 out, along with Cabrera outhitting Trout .356 to .324 with runners in scoring position. Hitting .286 with runners in scoring position with 2 outs is very mediocre. It does not take a rocket scientist to see who the clear cut winner should have been and is.

    ...Rick
    Holy cherry-picking, Batman.

    Trout played 139 games. He scored 129 runs. That's 20 more runs scored than Cabrera in 22 fewer games. How many extra bases did his legs create from passed balls, balls thrown to another base, etc? Things that won't be reflected in statistics.

    It's pretty myopic to say "Cabrera hit more home runs, drove in more runs, and had a higher average, therefore he's the MVP". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that hitting is only one part of the game.

    Cabrera is a below average defender at third base...by pretty much any metric you choose to look at. UZR he rates a -10, his dWAR is -0.2. And last I checked, defense is half the game. Trout absolutely smokes him defensively. dWar 2.1, UZR of 10.6. Not even close. I give credit to Cabrera for moving to third to make room for Fielder. But let's be honest. Cabrera doesn't help his team in the field. Trout does. Mike Trout robbed at least 4 home runs in 2012. Those are runs coming off the board because of his speed, and athleticism. Cabrera's not doing that.

    Trout led the majors with 49 stolen bases. Another area where he has a huge impact, and Cabrera has none. How many mistakes did Trout force pitchers into because he was a threat to steal? The Angels were 8-15 when he was called up, going nowhere. Their offense was awful. Once Trout came out, this team that had a .348 winning percentage without him went 81-58 with him, a .583 winning percentage.

    Cabrera, having the "best offensive season of his career", only had an OPS 33 points higher than Trout, a 20 year old rookie. Cabrera had a higher batting average? By 4 points. Whoopie! Cabrera was in his tenth major league season, and had won a batting title the season before. He'd been looking at major league pitching for a decade. Trout was in his second year, and first full season. Trout had a higher on base percentage, .399 to .393.

    Cabrera truly has one advantage over Trout, and only one. His power numbers. He hit more home runs, 44 to 30. Cabrera homered once every 14.14 at bats. Trout homered every 18.63 at bats. Looking at sabermetrics, isolated power supports Cabrera, too. Cabrera was 3rd in the AL with an isolated power of .277. Trout was 8th in the AL with an isolated power average of .238. But that is Cabrera's lone advantage. Runs created per 27 outs? Trout smokes him, 8.85 to 7.98. Secondary average? Trout is third in the AL at .436. Cabrera is 7th with a .387 secondary average.

    Win probability added? Trout led the AL in WPA at 5.3. Cabrera? 5th in WPA at 4.8.
    Wins above replacement? Trout led the majors with a 10.7 WAR. Cabrera was 4th at 6.9.
    OPS +, which should have been Cabrera's greatest strength? Trout 171, Cabrera 165.

    So to summarize:

    Better fielder: Trout, by far.
    Better base runner and base stealer: Trout, by far
    Better on base percentage: Trout
    Higher runs created per 27 outs played: Trout
    Higher win probability added: Trout
    Higher WAR: Trout
    Higher OPS+: Trout

    If Trout had played the entire season, there wouldn't even be a discussion.

    If Trout had played those other 23 numbers, his stats would have been:

    .324 AVG, 150 runs, 35 HR, 97 RBI, 57 stolen bases....as a 20 year old.

    And the whole "well, Cabrera led his team to the playoffs, and Trout didn't" is a bunch of hooey.

    The Tigers finished 88-74.
    The Angels finished 89-73. They played in a much tougher division, where Texas won 94 games, and Oakland won 93 games. Even Seattle won 75 games.

    The Tigers only won their division because the White Sox completely collapsed, losing 11 of their last 15 games. And the level of competition within their division wasn't nearly as tough as the AL West. Besides the White Sox, who won 85 games, the Royals were 72-90, the Indians were 68-94, and the Twins were 66-96.

    Mike Trout played on a better team, and was a far, far better overall player. And OPS + showed that he was at the very least as good an offensive player as Miguel Cabrera, if not better.

    Your argument that Cabrera was the clear MVP does not hold water. No offense, but it just doesn't. Miguel Cabrera had a phenomenal year at the plate. But to say he was far more valuable than a player that was nearly his equal at the plate, and far superior in the field, and on the basepaths, is just wrong.
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gladdyontherise View Post
    If we're putting stock into GIDP's, then we're putting as much stock into RBIs, right?
    No, because Cabrera came through far more often than he didn't. He drove in 139 runs. If he hadn't grounded into just a few of those double plays, he'd have driven in 150. Either way, it's an incredible number, and in any of his other seasons, his numbers would have made for a no brainer MVP vote. But Trout's season is historic. Nobody his age has ever done what he did. Hell, nobody any age has ever done what he did.

    Hitting .324 with 129 runs scored, 30 home runs, and 49 stolen bases is incredible.
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  9. #19
    I pay zero homage to WAR or any of those other bogus stats. WAR tries to substitute some invisible player whose stats are skewed because they are not hitting under the same situations (ballpark/lineup/ect). I've read that there are 100's of ways to make the calculation. That means you can get 100's of different results. I could give a rats butt about that so called stat. Give me the meat and potatoes, the raw facts. Trout barely beat Cabrera in OBP by .006 points. Cabrera trounced Trout .606 to .465 in SLG%. It's amusing that you want to say Trout beat Cabrera in OPS+ yet you did not mention that Cabrera beat Trout in OPS. Trout is faster, I agree. Trout finished 8th in Fld% among center fielders compared to Cabrera's 6th among third baseman. I think finishing 6th compared to 8th is better. In my line of work as far as I'm concerned if Trout robbed anyone of anything he should be arrested. Higher win probability. I don't deal with probabilities, I deal with facts. Here's the facts, Cabrera had a higher average, more home runs and more RBI's. Cabrera is much better clutch hitter as shown by his .420 average with runners in scoring position with two outs compared to Trout's dismal .286 average. I could care less about WAR's, dWAR's, UZR's, MOFO's. Baseball has been around for over a hundred years without these so called stats that are pure speculation and conjecture and has done just fine without them thank you.

    To say "Cabrera truly has one advantage over Trout, and only one" is laughable. Who cares if Cabrera has been in the league ten years and that he had his "best offensive season". The MVP Award is based off of one season, this past season. To try to give credence that Trout deserves the award because he has been in the league 8 or 9 years less is ludicrous.

    The only cherry picking was done by you trying to substitute fictitious stats (WAR) to raw facts (avg/hr/rbi's/ect). I also don't go by IF's. Your IF's hold no water saying that if he played the entire season, 23 more games his stats would be higher. I totally disagree. Trout hit .392 in July, .284 in August and .257 in September. That tells me one of three things or a combination of the three. Either Trout was tired from all the games played which means playing an additional 23 more games would have lowered his stats. Possibly pitchers figured a better way to pitch to him or Trout is really not a .326 hitter. Additionally it may have showed he cannot perform in the clutch when games matter which is indicative of his poor .286 average with runners in scoring position with two out compared to Cabrera's excellent .420 average. You don't go by IF's with stats in baseball. There are a bunch of players that IF they stayed healthy they would have made it into the HOF. IF I was smart I would not be on here explaining why Cabrera should have won the MVP Award when the stats speak for themselves. It was a no-brainer that Cabrera should have won the MVP Award and the voters felt the same way with the landslide victory, receiving 22 of 28 first place votes.

    Case Closed...

    ...Rick


    EDIT: I'll add one last thing. Trout had an excellent year and he was awarded with what he deserved, Rookie of the Year. I believe the Angels knew what they were doing because Trout is lucky he received the ROY because if he had 8 more AB's last year he would not have been eligible this year for the award. I believe he should have received the MVP Award for the best player on a third place team, if there was one. LOL
    Last edited by NY Sports Teams; 11-24-2012 at 07:45 PM.
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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by lambeausouth View Post
    No, because Cabrera came through far more often than he didn't. He drove in 139 runs. If he hadn't grounded into just a few of those double plays, he'd have driven in 150. Either way, it's an incredible number, and in any of his other seasons, his numbers would have made for a no brainer MVP vote. But Trout's season is historic. Nobody his age has ever done what he did. Hell, nobody any age has ever done what he did.

    Hitting .324 with 129 runs scored, 30 home runs, and 49 stolen bases is incredible.
    I'm not arguing against Trout, if I had a vote, my non-bias pick goes to him. I'm just saying, stats like runs scored, RBIs, and even GIDPs are all based on opportunity, right? You can't score runs if you don't get driven in, you can't drive in guys if nobody is on, and you can't hit into a double play if you don't have a guy on 1st base.
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