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  1. #61


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Beckett (66)

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    1: Imperfect communism doesn't default to socialism. They are two separate ideologies, albeit with the same roots. But that's like saying imperfect Judaism defaults to Christianity because they come from the same roots.

    2: If you're going to be as glib as possible, that will do, yes. And don't look now, but the US isn't completely capitalistic either. Do you have government health care? Do you have welfare? There are socialist aspects of the US and have been for a long, long time. But you don't want socialism hittingyour shores...too late. Obama is turning the country socialist...except that you've had these socialist programs for years and years. America says socialism is bad, but borrows from it and then says it's not socialism because socialism is (describe communism here)
    Back to your simplification though, basically, yeah. And neither has to work perfectly to exist. In fact, I don't know of any ideology, political, fiscal, religious et al, that works perfectly. As long as thing like greed, envy and human emotion get involved, and they always will, nothing will ever be perfect. So to say any one ideology has to be successful to exist or it's something else makes no sense. Everything would be nothing, because nothing is successful.

    Under the idea of communism everyone is the same. That's why everyone was "comrade" in the USSR (hence the term "commie"). Even the leader doesn't technically exist and is not referred to as a leader. Gender, race, it doesn't matter, you're equal. Religion? Well, communism runs best under atheism as the idea of personal righteousness creates inequality. You put in as much as you can and take out the same as everyone else, whether they worked as hard as you or not. Any leftovers go to government to redistribute again, but there shouldn't be leftovers.
    We all saw how it worked in practice with the USSR. Their government was fat, their highly regarded citizens (ie: really good hockey players) had run of the place and everyone else waited in line for days just to eat scraps.

    Socialism let's you work as hard as you want and reap the rewards. Socialism just asks for some of it back to help those who can't do the same. Again, in practice it also helps those who don't want to do the same.

    Capitalism, true capitalism, doesn't do any of that. True capitalism is almost libertarian with an attitude of, "I got mine, get lost." It makes sense in that you get what you work for, but it also leads to higher crime, which leads the wealthy to take control and can often lead to a fascist police state.

    Canada is mostly socialist with an air of capitalism. The US is mostly capitalist with an air of socialism. The US's economy tanked and took the world with it. Except that Canada did pretty well. I haven't heard any horror stories out of Sweden either.

  2. #62



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    Amazing post except for one part in the beginning and one at the end

    1-Socialism leads to communism in theory. In reality, socialist countries stay socialist. Look at Canada, Sweden, etc. I don't think any are going communist any time soon. I know Canada isn't. If anything, we're headed the other way.

    2-Your remark about having socialism or capitalism. Socialism in lures capitalism. It is communism that does not.

    Otherwise, great post.

    Edit: I just re read your post and thought I would add something. Part of socialism is fairly heavy regulation of business (note: not ownership, that would be communism). Just look at Canada to see what regulation of business does. We have a lot, especially when compared to the US. When the bottom fell out, Canada was left with the top economy in the world. We have private business. We have a capitalist society. We prettyuch have everything you have.

    So what is really wrong with socialism?
    It seems like you're kind of arguing that the success of Canada is because of socialism, but I'm pretty sure you don't believe that.

    Can the fruits of capitalism be used in positive ways to help socially? Of course, it's simply finding the happy medium.

    I've always believed that capitalism has created more freedom and lifted more people out of poverty that any other economic system, so I found it interesting that this fellow seems to agree.

    http://vimeo.com/53945169
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  3. #63



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    1: Imperfect communism doesn't default to socialism. They are two separate ideologies, albeit with the same roots. But that's like saying imperfect Judaism defaults to Christianity because they come from the same roots.

    2: If you're going to be as glib as possible, that will do, yes. And don't look now, but the US isn't completely capitalistic either. Do you have government health care? Do you have welfare? There are socialist aspects of the US and have been for a long, long time. But you don't want socialism hittingyour shores...too late. Obama is turning the country socialist...except that you've had these socialist programs for years and years. America says socialism is bad, but borrows from it and then says it's not socialism because socialism is (describe communism here)
    Back to your simplification though, basically, yeah. And neither has to work perfectly to exist. In fact, I don't know of any ideology, political, fiscal, religious et al, that works perfectly. As long as thing like greed, envy and human emotion get involved, and they always will, nothing will ever be perfect. So to say any one ideology has to be successful to exist or it's something else makes no sense. Everything would be nothing, because nothing is successful.

    Under the idea of communism everyone is the same. That's why everyone was "comrade" in the USSR (hence the term "commie"). Even the leader doesn't technically exist and is not referred to as a leader. Gender, race, it doesn't matter, you're equal. Religion? Well, communism runs best under atheism as the idea of personal righteousness creates inequality. You put in as much as you can and take out the same as everyone else, whether they worked as hard as you or not. Any leftovers go to government to redistribute again, but there shouldn't be leftovers.
    We all saw how it worked in practice with the USSR. Their government was fat, their highly regarded citizens (ie: really good hockey players) had run of the place and everyone else waited in line for days just to eat scraps.

    Socialism let's you work as hard as you want and reap the rewards. Socialism just asks for some of it back to help those who can't do the same. Again, in practice it also helps those who don't want to do the same.

    Capitalism, true capitalism, doesn't do any of that. True capitalism is almost libertarian with an attitude of, "I got mine, get lost." It makes sense in that you get what you work for, but it also leads to higher crime, which leads the wealthy to take control and can often lead to a fascist police state.

    Canada is mostly socialist with an air of capitalism. The US is mostly capitalist with an air of socialism. The US's economy tanked and took the world with it. Except that Canada did pretty well. I haven't heard any horror stories out of Sweden either.
    I think Canada is much more capitalist then you realize, socialism after all was in large part anti-capitalist and believed in societal ownership rather than private ownership.
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  4. #64


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    Beckett (66)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tpeichel View Post
    I think Canada is much more capitalist then you realize, socialism after all was in large part anti-capitalist and believed in societal ownership rather than private ownership.
    I think America is (already) more socialist than you realize, capitalism after all does not allow for the government to redistribute in any fashion, including health care, welfare and social security.

    But you do NOT want socialism in your country, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    I think America is (already) more socialist than you realize, capitalism after all does not allow for the government to redistribute in any fashion, including health care, welfare and social security.

    But you do NOT want socialism in your country, right?
    Oh, I'm well aware where the U.S. is at. Food, healthcare, housing, etc, it's all getting redistributed. I'd much prefer having private organizations provide services to the needy rather than having layer after layer of government organizations providing the same things much more inefficiently, distorting markets, and facilitating corruption.
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  6. #66


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    Quote Originally Posted by tpeichel View Post
    Oh, I'm well aware where the U.S. is at. Food, healthcare, housing, etc, it's all getting redistributed. I'd much prefer having private organizations provide services to the needy rather than having layer after layer of government organizations providing the same things much more inefficiently, distorting markets, and facilitating corruption.
    Because private business can be trusted with that. Private business runs the economy and look how well that's going.
    Great idea!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by JustAlex View Post
    Shrew, both France and Germany are still much more socialized than America, and I'm NOT advocating for "pure socialism".


    Yes, I know that you and probably the majority of Americans think of the extreme negative examples of socialism.



    I can easily look at Capitalist America and see it as an unmitigated failure...

    Despite being the #1 Economy in the world, the U.S is:

    #37 in Health Care.....almost every country in Europe is ahead of the U.S where they have socialized medicine and they also spend LESS than the U.S on Health Care.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_H...health_systems


    The Wealth gap in the U.S continues to make the Rich richer and the poor poorer:



    Yeah....if you're rich, the U.S is the perfect country for you.
    I disagree with this slightly. First, most European countries have more homogenous population. It makes it easier to focus on illiness within the population. Second, they have smaller populations then the U.S. Third, much of their tech is subsidized by U.S. prices. We pay for the world getting more advanced technology. Fourth, most European countries spend more of their GDP on social services and health care. Since our system focuses on end stage disease our number is artificially inflated due to this. Fifth, Americans are more obese then Europeans on average. This causes many complications from heart disease and diabetes. Lastly, the money for the system had been there. If we didn't spend it on other things, we should have about 5 trillion saved for the system.

    Taking all of this into consideration I have thought the "health care crisis" has been caused by lack of planning and personal responsibility.
    Last edited by drtom2005; 12-07-2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  8. #68
    As for socialism, people need to think about how insurance works in general.

    A group of people pay premiums.
    10% of the population has problems all of the time.
    Kind of socialism, right?
    Why did premiums go up for auto workers in the U.S.?
    Their population go older and were more sick. This is difficult on businesses if their work force is older.
    Last edited by drtom2005; 12-07-2012 at 11:02 PM.
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  9. #69



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    Because private business can be trusted with that. Private business runs the economy and look how well that's going.
    Great idea!
    Business is in bed with the government if you haven't noticed. The government doles out favors to those that play the game, so business must go to them with hat and hand, lest there competitors get an unfair advantage. It's sickening how much back scratching goes on between the government and business.

    The market would be much more efficient if the government wasn't so involved. Who agreed to let the banks merge there commercial and investment operations? The government. And who agreed to continue to backstop the big banks when there investment operations took on even more and more riskier investments? The government.

    If the banks would have known that they were going to go bankrupt if there risky investments went south, most of them would not have put that capital at risk. The government has distorted the markets to such an extent, that it's hard to call it a free market system. The excessive printing of money has been great for those invested in the stock market, not so good for the people buying food and gas or living off fixed income investments.
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  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by tpeichel View Post
    Business is in bed with the government if you haven't noticed. The government doles out favors to those that play the game, so business must go to them with hat and hand, lest there competitors get an unfair advantage. It's sickening how much back scratching goes on between the government and business.

    The market would be much more efficient if the government wasn't so involved. Who agreed to let the banks merge there commercial and investment operations? The government. And who agreed to continue to backstop the big banks when there investment operations took on even more and more riskier investments? The government.

    If the banks would have known that they were going to go bankrupt if there risky investments went south, most of them would not have put that capital at risk. The government has distorted the markets to such an extent, that it's hard to call it a free market system. The excessive printing of money has been great for those invested in the stock market, not so good for the people buying food and gas or living off fixed income investments.
    Personally, I think the system is slightly better then before. In the 1890s, J.P. Morgan bailed out the U.S. government. I would like business to be at the mercy of elected officals, not the other way around.
    At least we can vote out the elected people.
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