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12-19-2012, 04:52 AM #1
Another Question/Observation about History of Hockey
Even though I don't really have a "dog in this fight" and even though I only have a "few" infraction points left, I still figured what the heck, I'll still make this post anyways. On one hand, it may shut-up some of the whiney b*tches that seem to have taken-over the site and in a worst-case, I'll have used my last infraction points and won't be able to read the replies anyways :):
History of Hockey - a first of it's kind in the Hockey industry? I mean, a first "legitimate" product like this in the hockey card market?
Roughly 4000-packs? So, a person buying this has a 1:4000 chance to nab a Vezina RC, or an Orr RC or an Gretzky RC or a Howe RC etc.?
I've been reading quite a few of the posts and two questions keep coming to mind -
(a) do these very "angry" posters actually think that there is an Orr RC in every pack? Yes, there are allot of dogs and no-names in the set but seriously, if/when you bought an 05-06 Cup pack, did you expect a Crosby RC in every pack? Did you stomp and cry when you didn't get one? My guess, is that you probably whine about everything.
(b) perhaps more relevant - all of the people who are bashing and slamming the product - have you even opened a single pack of it? Please don't give me the crap about watching your "friend" open the pack, because if they were disappointed, then they have the right to complain - not you!
Personally, I don't think there is any bigger garbage in the market today, then that which comes from Panini. They have single-handedly flooded the market and are destroying prices for almost everything. Their supposed "high-end" products, very regularly yield $1 sales on ebay. However, while I have watched many people that I know open and subsequently get burned by products like Dominion, I haven't come onto the site and spewed the hate, because I was not the one who opened and got burned by Panini.
Opening a pack of anything that costs $250/pack, is nothing more then a crap-shoot. Your chances are better then playing the lottery but still never in your favour. After reading some of these posts, I wander if these whiney haters, also have the same reaction when they buy a lottery quick-pick and don't get any numbers at all - and that happens allot. Is there some type of lottery website where you can go and complain that not only did you not win the $50-million but didn't even get a number?
Opening a pack of HOH and then bashing the product because you didn't get the Vezina RC is beyond lame. It's like someone opening some 2010-11 The Cup and calling the product junk, if they didn't pull the Subban Black 1/1 RC. Maybe that's not a good example :whistle:
For those who have seen my posts in the past, they are likely aware that probably as much as anyone on this site, I have often been referred to as an "ITG Hater". Truth be told, I used to supply and open allot of ITG product. Then, after many "issues" I stopped touching the product entirely. Today, I still get the itch to seek-out certain players and certain cards and with exception to ITG, the other companies do not even offer these cards as an option. Is ITG a perfect company - no. To my knowledge, no such "perfect" company exists. However, while Panini remains clueless and simply continues to follow the 1990's Pacific Playbook and UD simply could care less what anyone says, ITG has at least shown (at times), that not only are they willing to listen but that they are also willing to make changes to aid the collector (ie) the famous expo-cards is one such example.
Has anyone ever seen McWilliams from UD come onto this site? Why would he - he knows that people will buy whatever junk they produce, as long as it's UD.
How about anyone of "standing" from Panini?
Nothing worse then when someone makes a long post but what the heck, if it's my last one, then I did it my way!
A friend of mine has opened around (14) Master-cases of the product so far. When he speaks about the product, I hear more about the Art Memorabilia cards, the unique Autograph cards and even about some nobody player that has long since been forgotten that he remembers watching 30-years ago, then the Tootoo BAP Memorabilia RC that got pulled. I could be wrong (its happened once before) but I think that talk (hockey memories), is what the creators of History of Hockey had in mind, more-so then what RC you could pull and sell on ebay.
After watching allot of cool cards get pulled, I got caught-up in the frenzy and opened a little ITG HOH myself. If I get a moment, I will post my results.
12-19-2012, 05:06 AM #2
I agree with a lot of what you said but why slam Panini for even less legitimate reasons. It kind of contradicts your post.
Personally, I don't think there is any bigger garbage in the market today, then that which comes from Panini. They have single-handedly flooded the market and are destroying prices for almost everything.
Their supposed "high-end" products, very regularly yield $1 sales on ebay.
However, while I have watched many people that I know open and subsequently get burned by products like Dominion, I haven't come onto the site and spewed the hate, because I was not the one who opened and got burned by Panini.
12-19-2012, 05:39 AM #3
"It's a forum, people have a right to criticize a product and form an opinion even if they haven't busted it themselves.
(A) You open a box of an ITG product, you shell-out allot of cash in doing-so. You get a lousy box. Then you go to the Expo and see ITG giving-out a bunch of the same cards that you pulled, making yours worth even less. You come to the forum and vent - this is legitimate criticism.
(B) You come to the forum, you see that ITG has posted the checklist for their new product. You haven't purchased a box, you haven't opened a box and you don't know anyone that has. You come to the forum and vent - this is crap!
We'll just have to agree, to dis-agree on this point I guess.
12-19-2012, 05:55 AM #4
Personally I agree with bdiam other than the Panini is garbage stuff. Really they are all the same and ITG is the best because they at least try and listen to US the collectors. My favourite cards in my Sundin PC are ITG cards!
Panini makes a lot of good cards. Collectors just don't value them as highly as the established Upper Deck cards. I honestly think that this years Dominion looks better than this years The Cup but singles from it sell for way less.
Actually I'm hoping UD goes bankrupt and gets out of the hobby with ITG and Panini having the 2 NHL licenses. That would be the best news scenario.
I can't afford to bust any high end products right now and am trying to leave the hobby because while I love collecting cards I can't justify throwing away money that I should be using for better things. I wasted too much money on the hobby recently and should have instead saved it to pay for school.
History of Hockey is no different than any other product. It is a gamble. The art/mem cards are incredible! There are some extremely valuable hits in the product. There is also filler. Obviously there are flaws with the product but a lot of positives as well. I'd prefer more iconic cards that represent the history of hockey card collecting in hand signed autos and better ITG buyback cards.
Overall it is also hard to put a value on authentic slabbed rookies. Whatever PC player collectors are willing to pay is what they will go for.
12-19-2012, 07:13 AM #5
The counterpoint is, of course, you form an opinion before you make any purchase.
If I'm buying a tv, I go to the store and look around. I don't buy one, get it home and wait three months to evaluate it and then go back to buy another tv if I don't like it. The checklists get posted so that, we, the 'consumers' as well as collectors, CAN formulate an opinion on whether or not a product is something we are interested in and make decisions based on that. Take a product like last year's Broad Street Boys from ITG. Great product, very well received. I busted NONE as I'm not a Flyers fan and had no real collector interest in the product. I can certainly talk about how nice the product was, right?
On the flip side, I can look at a product like History of Hockey, know its not for me and I feel like the forums are a place where we can all share our opinions as to why (preferably in a respectful manner). With regard to History of Hockey, (1) I prefer the auto cards produced rather than PSA/DNA slabbed (for non-deceased players, of course, and even 'buyback'-autos are ok, though I prefer un-slabbed). (2) I'm not interested in 'random' buy-backs (I have access to eBay and trading sites to pick up what I want). (3) 'Authentic' rookies of non-forged cards and time periods seems excessive. I think the art cards are beautiful, but at the end of the day, I have to make a decision on whether or not $225-250 of my collecting budget can be spent on a 4-cd box. Upside, great art card and a shot at a Vezina or Howe RC. Downside, I could buy close to 50% of the RC checklist (unslabbed, of course) for the same $250 with many collectors probably giving them away...
I agree, bashing - bad, criticism - reasonable, praise - appreciated. Remember, opinions are like BLEEP - everyone's got one. The forums are where we share :D:
12-19-2012, 09:40 AM #6
As a Flyers fan, I was super excited with BBB was initially announced, however as details came out, I didn't think it was the product for me. It turns out it really wasn't. I haven't purchased a box or card from the set at all. Again, the benefits of research.Have you seen the other half??? Joe Sakic Captain-C 2/2
12-19-2012, 09:43 AM #7
Like I say in my sig, so more order to hide the complete disorder. So mutch emotional dispute, over anything really. I have to keep my head clean and cold to not go on a depression about the humain race. I'm not pointing anyone, I'm in the same boat as everyone.
I can't believe people who spent 250 dollars on a hockey box and complain after that. Telling they'll leave the hobby, telling that X or T or S compagny is flooding/corrupt/destroying the hobby instead of feeling the coolness of seeing a great hockey picture, and like it, whatever compagny produced it. Taking their time to write about negative things on a forum who should be dedicated to conviviality and helping each others. Sure they have the right. They also have the right to write an essay about history, sociology, or create a foundation who support young signers or sick childrens.
I can't believe so mutch anger, so mutch hate. So mutch sentiments and ressentment for hockey cards. I can't believe the out of focus of all this. Why no more posts about how great a logo is, about what fun it is to look at a hockey player and enjoy the plethora of sentiments that came from that view, and be happy that this thing exists, that we are able to sense these emotions, and love them.My things: Hidden Content
Wants: Noble and bizarre things.
12-19-2012, 12:27 PM #8
What other product offers Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Patrick Roy, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, Georges Vezina, Frank Patrick, Charlie Conacher Game-used memorabilia under 40 copies per card in ONE set? People tend to focus to much on the three other cards, while the value and the interest IS the mem/art card.WANTLIST: Pre-WWI Montreal cards (hockey / baseball / lacrosse). George Vezina, Newsy Lalonde, Didier Pitre, Joseph Cattarinich, Jack Laviolette, Cyclone Taylor, Joe Malone, Paddy Moran, Patrick Brothers. Also Vintage Habs and OPC Baseball.
TRADELIST: Hidden Content
12-19-2012, 12:39 PM #9
People are doing alot of bashing about how "oh who wants early 90s RCs, they are worth 5 - 10cents". If anyone has actually been looking on ebay at completed sales for these cards maybe you wont bash so hard. A simple breakdown,
11-12 UD Series 1 box break can very commonly look like this:
6 YGs that sell at 0.50$ - 1.00$ each
2 jerseys that sell at 1.00$ - 2.00$ each
6 inserts that sell at 0.25 - 0.50$ each
boxes are in the 80-90$ range.
SO, if we take the average from the prices above we get,
6 YGs at 0.75$ = 4.50$
2 GU at 1.50$ = 3.00$
6 inserts at 0.38$ = 2.28$
total return on your investment = 9.78$
9.78$/90$ = 0.108 = 10.8% return on your investment.
History of Hockey
1 RC = even Paul Kariya 92-93 UD RCs are selling consistently at 10$ each, so lets just go with that one since its low end
1 art card = /40 selling anywhere consistently from 20 - 50$
1 buy back = these range widely of course, but even like Mark Recchi's 2002 signature series was the most recent sale at 20$; do u think this card unslabbed by ITG would go that high? nope sorry. Another recent, 03-04 ITG Action Emerald jersey (white swatch) Chelios, for 25$; again about a 3$ card if not part of HoH. Including the very nice pieces that can be attained, lets stick the average at about 20$ on the buyback
1 autograph PSA/DNA - u can say what u want about the crop of players, but people are loving these from the ebay world, especially when people like Anders Kallur (who the?) are going for 12.50$ + ship. Lets call the average here about 12$ (look at ebay completed listings to see why)
So now we have a breakdown of:
RC - 10$
Art Card - lets say 25$ to keep on the low end
Buyback - 20$
autograph - 12$
total ROI - 67$
67$/250$ = 0.268 = 26.8% return on investment
Just because its more expensive, doesnt mean your ROI isnt better. This is staying on the low scale of everything in a HoH box. You hit an above average card in any of the four categories, your in the 30-40% range. An Art Card /10 your close in the 60-70% range, a 1/1 well your into the >100%.
Bash all you want, but do some research on the ebay scales and compare to other sets with respect to ROI before you start stating facts. These products were hand packed I got direct word from Dr Price (even though its obvious these packs were) so if you did get stuck with an Adam Deadmarsh, something else would make up for it above average.
Also remember these cards are a part of HISTORY of HOCKEY and are slabbed to say so, so people are paying higher dollar for their respective PC players to get these cards, especially when there are only several of most cards, these collectors will fight for them. Paul Kariya doesnt have much new stuff coming out anymore, so a slabbed RC from a new 12-13 set and only 6 - 8 available, yeah thats something new for them to add to their PC hence the higher price than a raw kariya rc.
12-19-2012, 01:56 PM #10
The part of your post that I've quoted above, though, is the part I question and it goes well beyond ITG. If a personalized Beckett slab labeling an old card as 'authentic' truly 'makes' a new card, we, as collectors, could be in trouble and, as hobbyists, I think we may have reason for concern. I have no problem that a Bob Probert collector wants the History of Hockey slabbed version of the Probert RC (or that a Kariya collector wants the Kariya RC), but how long is that sustainable? Does that collector also want the 'History of Hockey II' version? Or what about the 'Sports Card Forum Collection' version? Do you see my point? Re-packaging is a slippery slope within our hobby, in general, and to see a manufacturer 'sell' it to us as legitimate 'new' cards (which is the argument you make based on the quote) is disappointing (to me).
I won't question the motives of another collector. I believe that you should collect what you want and what you enjoy. But I enjoy the hobby and also want to see it grow and improve. I don't see re-packaging old RCs as an improvement. Doing something for collectors that they largely choose not to do (authenticate RCs which aren't subject to forgery - I couldn't find a single example of an 'authentic' card from PSA or BGS from ~1984-current anywhere on eBay - plenty of graded, but none listed simply as 'authentic') doesn't provide value, in my opinion. But that's me. I'll never be surprised that someone wants to pay more (or less) for something than I would.
I can't and won't speak for others. I believe that criticism can be handled appropriately and 'bashing' is not the way to do it. At the same time, collectors, like their opinions, are unique and the forums provide a place for us to share them with one another. I would never actively discourage someone from buying History of Hockey, that's each person's individual choice. But I can watch a couple breaks, read a few posted breaks, look at the checklist and form my own opinion of the product without spending my own money on a box, a 4-box case or a master case. In fact, that's exactly what I do with each product that comes out so that I can decide for myself how I spend my hobby dollars. You can agree or disagree with my opinion on a product, but you shouldn't be able to tell me how to formulate it and attacking my opinion by saying, 'You have no right to say that without buying the product first' is absurd.