ITG History Of Hockey......My concerns as a comsumer/collector.

[Fred Bear]

I could create my own packs and sell them. All the cards I own are legally purchased and attained. If I want to create packs and sell them that way I am free to do you under the law.

Lots of guys sell re-packs and mystery packs on eBay. They are usually referred to as 'scammers' on the boards. Not really a flattering comparison. I've thought hard about turning my stack of 90-91 UD HOF RCs (Larionov, Belfour, Modano in a couple years) into the authentic 'Fred Bear Collection' in BGS slabs. The Belfour (I have ~50) books the same as the $2.50 Probert DP which sold for $30... That's a good return for what is otherwise fire-starting cardboard! LOL

I just find it isn't in good taste to value off of another company's product. They dangle a few carrots in front of consumers and most of the product is overvalued filler.

You really can't have a problem with that. Look at what any re-seller is doing - making money off a card someone else manufactured. It's the nature of business. Taking it a step further, though, and you get to my objection to Panini and UD's brick and mortar 'only' wax sales programs. The re-seller adds no inherent value to the product, yet charges a mark-up. That's a problem. The Panini and UD 'authorized' programs create a false market. Most businesses succeed or fail based on that businesses ability to add value or perceived value to a product or service. I find nothing wrong with re-selling product and making money, but you should (or at least try to) 'add' value. In the brick and mortar example, a shop can add value, but they should not be rewarded for simply being a place to buy wax boxes. A case-breaker can add just as much, if not more, value to consumers by assuming the risk of opening the product and offering the singles to collectors. In the case of History of Hockey, ITG has added a 'perceived' value by slabbing and authenticating the cards and autographs. A collector needs to choose for themselves if that is the worth the cost being assigned.

[2010CTyler]

Lots of guys sell re-packs and mystery packs on eBay. They are usually referred to as 'scammers' on the boards. Not really a flattering comparison. I've thought hard about turning my stack of 90-91 UD HOF RCs (Larionov, Belfour, Modano in a couple years) into the authentic 'Fred Bear Collection' in BGS slabs. The Belfour (I have ~50) books the same as the $2.50 Probert DP which sold for $30... That's a good return for what is otherwise fire-starting cardboard! LOL



You really can't have a problem with that. Look at what any re-seller is doing - making money off a card someone else manufactured. It's the nature of business. Taking it a step further, though, and you get to my objection to Panini and UD's brick and mortar 'only' wax sales programs. The re-seller adds no inherent value to the product, yet charges a mark-up. That's a problem. The Panini and UD 'authorized' programs create a false market. Most businesses succeed or fail based on that businesses ability to add value or perceived value to a product or service. I find nothing wrong with re-selling product and making money, but you should (or at least try to) 'add' value. In the brick and mortar example, a shop can add value, but they should not be rewarded for simply being a place to buy wax boxes. A case-breaker can add just as much, if not more, value to consumers by assuming the risk of opening the product and offering the singles to collectors. In the case of History of Hockey, ITG has added a 'perceived' value by slabbing and authenticating the cards and autographs. A collector needs to choose for themselves if that is the worth the cost being assigned.

There's a certain merit in a company designing, manufacturing, and selling their own product. Simply re-packaging highly sought after cards and mixing them with mostly garbage filler is ridiculous. ITG should take a chance like every other company.

[avs9601]

I really don't understand all the ITG bashing, if you don't like a product or a company just don't buy it !!!

I really don't see the point in making these kind of thread.....

[2010CTyler]

[QUOTE=avs9601;12326332]I really don't understand all the ITG bashing, if you don't like a product or a company just don't buy it !!!

I really don't see the point in making thkind of thread.....[/QUOTE

It'd not bashing. Every consumer has right to express what aspects they like or don' li about a product. Not every person who opens this stuff is going to like it. That's just reality. Why do all the ITG fans take everything personally? If this were a thread about Panini or UD, everyone would be jumping in.

[ginx86]

I really don't understand all the ITG bashing, if you don't like a product or a company just don't buy it !!!

I really don't see the point in making these kind of thread.....

People should comment however they like but I don't see the point in making two threads about the same product.

[centrehice]

I really don't understand all the ITG bashing, if you don't like a product or a company just don't buy it !!!

I really don't see the point in making these kind of thread.....

Simple really. They are "Consumer Protection" threads.

[comfortably9numb]

I still don't get it. If it is a waste of money, or a gamble that is completely one-sided in your opinion, then don't do it and just buy the singles, that would prove your point. By buying more product, all you are doing is making the company win. Personally, I see nothing wrong with History of Hockey, in fact, I'd LOVE to bust a box (being a poor college kid i really can't afford many boxes in general), but I do see your points about the lower value cards, but this is just a gamble...like any box break. If they odds are too bias in your opinion, then just focus on the singles.

Also, I think there is a huge difference with people who focus on the value, and people who focus on the card. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have a cut-auto of a legend of hockey, than a lot of 100 gretzky RC's, 100 Orr's and 100 Howe's. It's the collector in me I guess, I've never bought a box expecting a huge return, and I sell very little of my stuff that I personally bust, so maybe my opinion is bias towards a more traditional collector standpoint

[RGM81]

I could create my own packs and sell them. All the cards I own are legally purchased and attained. If I want to create packs and sell them that way I am free to do you under the law.

Just not at SCF. Only staff are allowed to sell wax. ;)

They dangle a few carrots in front of consumers and most of the product is overvalued filler.

Dr. Price has adequately and succinctly summarized a response to this already. Lest I be accused of drinking someone else's Kool-Aid again, I'll let you search for it and draw your own conclusions. Suffice to say, Upper Deck releases products that have A level Wayne Gretzky autograph hits at a very high ratio that also include F level Pascale Leclaire autograph hits at a much more frequent ratio. With the awesome stuff there must necessarily come less awesome stuff to balance out pricing and value throughout the print run. If every box guaranteed a Gretzky auto, prices would skyrocket and further the complains many already have about being priced out of wax-busting.

ITG should take a chance like every other company.

I'm curious to know what this means. By "take a chance" do you mean release the latest edition of SP Game Used that features a new type of "Marks" set to it?

Of all the products out there, History of Hockey is one IMO that goes way beyond the standard formula these days of producing a product that goes through the usual motions of a production configuration: SP'd RC's, some autos - about 95% of which will hold little interest to collectors, some GU's that will inevitably find their way to sellers' dollar boxes, and some spiffy shiny parallels.


A product like this, as is the case with a lot of ITG releases, is a gamble. It's not a mass-produced easily-accessible release that is for everybody's tastes and interests. The price point is one factor. It may not have enough cards of your favourite player. It may have too many. You may be a younger collector and not care as much about Henri Richard as you do about Sidney Crosby. But ITG's got a good rep for giving people who are interested in history a venue to get some very nice cards. A product like Broad Street Bullies has a targeted appeal market, which is why Dr. Price communicated with Flyers fans and collectors to get their opinions on who to include. He did the same with Forever Rivals, which went over like gangbusters with Habs and Leafs fans. Personally I think a lot of misplaced emphasis has been placed on this idea of "a few carrots" worth of autos or RC's - a product like The Cup has only "a few carrots" worth of RC's does it not, and at twice the price? The shining star pointed out by virtually everybody that has bought the product are the art/memo cards. Some of those are going for pretty big bucks because they capture a moment in the history of the sport that people identify with. In that regard, the other 3 cards are just the set-up to that main event at the bottom of the pack. You may get something awesome in addition to your art/memo card that makes a very good break into a great one. Not all of them will deliver that extra special sensation of having hit a goldmine, but that's hardly unique in the hobby.

People are free to choose and like what they please, of course, and I enjoy this type of discussion as a pro-hobby collector. There's something out there for everybody. What I find interesting about these numerous threads about History of Hockey and other ITG products is that discussions such as this don't take place with Panini or Upper Deck products. Nobody asks if Ultimate Collection should have a right to exist, even though I've seen plenty of breaks of that $100+ product that have yielded $1 rookies and $2 jerseys. Not every box of every product yields you a guarantee of anything in terms of your ROI, but there's a lot more vociferous condemnation and questioning of ITG's motives wit HoH than there is when one of the licensees uses photoshoot jerseys of a guy that played in 1 NHL game to be used repeatedly in a product with a similar price point. Yet there are many people who question whether ITG is breaking the law with this release. Do you honestly believe for a second that Dr. Price didn't do his due diligence in formulating the concept of this product before acquiring the numerous high-end cards originally released by UD, Parkhurst, or Panini and commissioning Jared Kelly to do all the artwork? Come on. Think it through.

There are always legitimate questions to be asked of a release - what went into it, what can we expect out of it, etc. ITG posted their checklist for this release days before it was released. There's no sleight of hand involved. There's no misleading customers. It's all out there for the naked eye to see. Is it simply a question of the disparity between the highest end hits and the lowest end hits that sets off so many people? I'm truly curious to know this. If that is the case, what are acceptable thresholds for the gap between the highest end hits and the lowest end hits in a product? How does such a thing become enforcable, because really, how does one ensure a stable value for that Danny Irmen Cup RC when his name was never on the box, amiright? Can we penalize a card company in the same fashion that the NHL wants to penalize clubs for back-diving contracts? I suppose that we do that, given how many disappointed people I see who have shelled out top dollar for high-end products only to not get that "foam" hit or the big 1/1.

I'm in a good-spirited mood today - it is only 6 days before Christmas after all - so I hope that folks reading this post don't get all defensive or take what I'm saying as being needlessly protective of ITG. I'm simply throwing a challenge flag at what has been said here and elsewhere that doesn't get said about products produced by other companies. If it be the case that there's not indisputable evidence to overturn the initial ruling on the field (i.e. whatever pre-conceived notions people may have) then Richard shall be charged with a timeout and must go back to posting football show & tell threads and/or figuring out what he's going to do if and when this lockout ends.

[Fred Bear]

There are always legitimate questions to be asked of a release - what went into it, what can we expect out of it, etc. ITG posted their checklist for this release days before it was released. There's no sleight of hand involved. There's no misleading customers. It's all out there for the naked eye to see. Is it simply a question of the disparity between the highest end hits and the lowest end hits that sets off so many people? I'm truly curious to know this. If that is the case, what are acceptable thresholds for the gap between the highest end hits and the lowest end hits in a product? How does such a thing become enforcable, because really, how does one ensure a stable value for that Danny Irmen Cup RC when his name was never on the box, amiright? Can we penalize a card company in the same fashion that the NHL wants to penalize clubs for back-diving contracts? I suppose that we do that, given how many disappointed people I see who have shelled out top dollar for high-end products only to not get that "foam" hit or the big 1/1.

I think this is an excellent question! It leads to another topic of where 'value' comes from when a product or pack is designed. I'll offer a simple math example first to show how 'value' can get skewed. [This is a general discussion - NOT manufacturer specific]

If I buy cards to create my own buyback product, let's keep it super simple and say I want to build 100 1-card packs. I buy a four $100 RC autos and 96 $1 bin specials. The 'average' pack cost me $4.96 to build with a total cost for me of $496 with a value of $496. I would need to charge about $6.50 a pack to turn solid profit (I prefer home-run investments) and that's going to make ~96 guys mad since they will 'lose' about $5.50 in value busting a pack - overpaying nearly 6x what the card they received was 'worth' (ROI = 15.4%). [I realize that nobody is going to buy this since there are only 4 winners in 100, just watch the math...]. But, what if I can 'increase' the value of the cards? So I ship them to Beckett for authentication and personalization which normally costs $9 and $3. I negotiate with Beckett and get a deal since I'm giving them exposure and get my costs down to $5 and $1.50 (I've got mad negotiating skillz! LOL). My costs went up by $650! BUT... The 'value' to a collector is $1200!!! [($9+$3)x100 cards] Now my product cost is $1146, with a 'retail' VALUE of $1696. I now charge $15 a pack to give me roughly the same rate of return and Voila! the worst cards are 'worth' $13 ($12 in authentication and personalization value plus $1 in card value). My customers only lose $2 in value on a $15 purchase (ROI = 86.7%)! Those 96 customers are WAY less upset, right?

The million dollar question is, of course... Does authentication and personalization inherently increase the value of a card? 'Fundamentally' speaking, yes, of course it does. There were more direct costs involved, so the value IS higher. Ultimately, though, it is up to the individual collector to determine for themselves if any real 'value' was added. For some, as has been pointed out, the value of having a unique or special card of 'their' player is worth more than the $15 pack price even if the card can be purchased for $1. For others, as has also been discussed, no value is added and the ROI on that pack for that collector is actually worse than had the cards been left un-slabbed - $1/$15 = 6.7%.

Personally, this is why I've argued that ITG is usually tops on their major releases - they have a median. With Heroes and Prospects and Between the Pipes, for a $75 or $100 box, the value received is usually pretty close. I, as a set collector, do associate an actual value to the base cards, but they still usually aren't bad on inserts and 'hits' alone. Are there boxes which are 'duds' or 'homers'? Of course, but they are much closer to the median (and box price) than what I've experienced with other manufacturers. That's not to say that Panini and UD don't have 'gems'. Score comes to mind with Panini and Artifacts is usually very solid for UD (so is Series II, typically). I've always liked that about ITG, though, a $600 box of ITG Ultimate usually won't peter out with $200 worth of cards... History of Hockey, though, doesn't fit their typical mold and most of that depends on the collector and how they perceive the value of the authentic slabs and the PSA/DNA autographs.

As I've tried to point out, I don't have any issue with ITG's production or marketing of History of Hockey and I do feel it's wrong for collectors to bash them on those grounds. The information they provided collectors was truthful and informative. The product simply wasn't 'for me' and I stayed away - based on the opinion I formed watching box breaks and reviewing the checklist, for myself. Honestly, it's more money for me to potentially apply to ITG's Motown Madness product in 2013.

[Note - You can actually extrapolate out the simple model to evaluate autos/game-used, the effect of a base set and simple inserts, as well as the benefit to the manufacturers by including redemptions. Every card in a release has a 'cost' and a perceived 'value' which can be accounted for - the spreadsheets can get messy. The multi-billion dollar question becomes where is the breaking point? At what point are the 'costs' unjustifiable to what can be produced at a given price level? I have no doubt that Panini's 'costs' justified the price point of Classics Signatures (diverse checklist, solid players, lots of content, etc.), but, ultimately, was it worth producing?]