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  1. #11
    Willie McGee was a great player. I agree he was not a HOFer, but he is much better than alot of guys that went in over him. I would take him over probably 20 guys that are in. That is the problem with the Hall of Shame.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by AllenGinterSigned View Post
    Willie McGee was a great player. I agree he was not a HOFer, but he is much better than alot of guys that went in over him. I would take him over probably 20 guys that are in. That is the problem with the Hall of Shame.
    First, what do you mean "went in over him"? Players that were up for Hall consideration at the same time, and were inducted when McGee was not?

    Name 5 players that are in Cooperstown that you would take McGee over.
    Last edited by the 'stache; 01-17-2013 at 08:49 AM.
    Collecting pre-war, vintage and modern baseball cards.
    Currently working on the T206 set, 1975 Topps, master collections of Roberto Clemente and Robin Yount.

  3. #13
    How bout all 11 hall of famers that I put in the thread topic. I'll take McGee over any of them.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AllenGinterSigned View Post
    How bout all 11 hall of famers that I put in the thread topic. I'll take McGee over any of them.
    Your list:

    C Schalk
    1B George Kelly
    2B Schoendienst
    3B Lindstrom
    SS Rizzuto
    OF Jim Rice
    OF McCarthy
    OF Llyod Waner
    RHP Sutton
    LHP Marquard
    RP Sutter

    First of all, a few of the players you've included in your list played the game more than eight decades ago. The game was different then.

    Ray Schalk was one of the best defensive catchers in the game. His defense is the reason for his induction.
    George Kelly was inducted by the veteran's committee, and I don't think he's worthy of the Hall. Here you could have a point. But again, you're talking about a player from nearly a century ago.
    Red Schoendienst, again, was a veteran's committee inductee. But he was one of the best second basemen in the game for over a decade. I don't have a problem with his being voted in.
    Freddie Lindstrom is a player I don't know much about, but looking over his credentials, he was probably the best fielding third baseman of his era. On top of that, he was an excellent hitter. Hall worthy? Debatable, as I never saw him play, and the BBWAA didn't induct him, the veteran's committee did. I don't know if I'd take McGee over him or not.
    Phil Rizzuto is a worthy inductee. The best defensive shortstop in the history of the game prior to Ozzie Smith's coming along. I'd take him ahead of Willie McGee every day and twice on Sundays.
    Jim Rice....Willie McGee ahead of him? LOL. Ah, no. Rice was one of the most feared hitters in the game when he played. He dusts McGee.
    Not sure who the hell "McCarthy" is. One was a manager, and one played in the 1800's. I'm not going to even get into a debate about somebody who played their entire career in the dead ball era.
    Lloyd Waner. Probably not Hall worthy, but again, I don't know if I'd take Willie McGee over him. He was a very good hitter at the start of his career, but it's his brother Paul that great one. You'd have an argument here.
    Don Sutton? Absolutely not. If I had a choice between Sutton and McGee on my team, it's not even close. Sutton is Hall worthy.
    Rube Marquard? Again, a guy that played a century ago. Veteran's committee inductee. You have an argument here that Marquard's Hall credentials are questionable. But his being in does not improve McGee's credentials. Maybe Marquard should not be in. But McGee doesn't belong either.
    Bruce Sutter. Absurd, one of the best closers to ever play the game, and completely dominated in his era. McGee is not in the same league.

    Collecting pre-war, vintage and modern baseball cards.
    Currently working on the T206 set, 1975 Topps, master collections of Roberto Clemente and Robin Yount.

  5. #15
    A few players you could make the case that they don't belong in Cooperstown. The problem is that you're not really finding anybody from the modern era in the Hall that McGee is clearly better than. You're not making the argument for his induction, rather you're making the argument for the removing of other players.

    I'm baffled that you could think that Willie McGee is somehow more deserving than Jim Rice.
    Last edited by the 'stache; 01-17-2013 at 10:15 AM.
    Collecting pre-war, vintage and modern baseball cards.
    Currently working on the T206 set, 1975 Topps, master collections of Roberto Clemente and Robin Yount.

  6. #16
    McGee is a very nice player. Career numbers a lot like Cecil Cooper but better speed, and far less power:

    2,192 hits, .298 AVG, 1,012 runs, 415 doubles, 245 HR, 1,125 RBI. 5 time all star, 2 gold gloves, 3 silver sluggers.
    3 200 hit seasons, led the AL in doubles twice, in RBI twice. Lost the batting title in 1980 to George Brett (he hit .352, Brett hit .390)

    5 year peak 1979-1983. His 162 game average: .320 AVG, 103 runs, 212 hits, 42 doubles, 28 HR, 120 RBI

    McGee: .297 AVG, .333 OBP, .729 OPS. 1,010 runs scored in 17 seasons.
    Cooper: .298 AVG, .337 OBP, .803 OPS. 1,012 runs scored in 18 seasons.

    Both really nice players, All Stars. But neither Hall worthy.
    Collecting pre-war, vintage and modern baseball cards.
    Currently working on the T206 set, 1975 Topps, master collections of Roberto Clemente and Robin Yount.

  7. #17
    I never said McGee was hall worthy. We agree on that. I'm just saying there are alot of hall worthy guys in the hall. You say Ray Schalk was a great defensive Catcher. True, but that alone should not get anyone in the Hall of Fame. Bob Boone and Mike Scocsia were great defensive Catchers too, they don't belong either. I honestly would throw close to 50 players out of the Hall of Fame, and put in about 10 that are not in now. There are alot of players that do not belong.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by metsmagic18 View Post
    Is there are parallel universe where Barry Bonds is nice to fans?

    Many guys on your second team ARE hall of famers...
    That was his point. That he would rather have the guys who aren't in the HOF over the team made up of HOF players. Though many of the players on the not in Hall of Fame yet list can still make it into the HOF. Just because you don't make it in on the first year doesn't mean you aren't getting in later.
    Trade Bucket: Hidden Content

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by lambeausouth View Post
    Don Sutton won 324 games, and struck out 3,574. His career ERA of 3.26 is only slightly better than Guidry's 3.29, but he maintained that ERA with more than twice as many career starts. His WHIP of 1.142 is better than Guidry's 1.184. Guidry won 15 or more games six times. Sutton did it twelve times. Sutton is a deserving Hall of Fame inductee. Guidry doesn't belong in Cooperstown.

    When you have to add a qualifier like "for only pitching 14 years", a player's not going to get in unless they were absolutely dominant for a majority of their career. Guidry wasn't. He was incredible in 1978. He finished top 5 in the Cy Young 3 other times. He had a great career winning percentage. But his career numbers don't come close to Hall Worthy, and he wasn't consistently an elite pitcher. To get in Cooperstown having a short career like that, you need to do something like Sandy Koufax did. For a six year period, Koufax was the best in the game, and one of the best in the history of the game. Guidry at best was an elite pitcher for two years, then he was a good to very good pitcher. He doesn't pass the litmus test.
    If we're going to compare wins, then lets mention the fact that Don Sutton also has 256 losses. Not only does he have a below average win-loss ratio, but he also has a ridiculous amount of losses. He had a decent amount of rather mediocre seasons. Don't get me wrong, he did have some good seasons, but longevity certainly played a role in padding his stats. There's no question in my mind who the better pitcher was. Lucky for Sutton, he was able to stay healthy for the majority of his career, but he was never a top tier pitcher in any of the seasons he played. Guidry also got a bit of a late start and supposedly had health problems towards the end of his career. Just my opinion.

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by baseballboy2 View Post
    If we're going to compare wins, then lets mention the fact that Don Sutton also has 256 losses. Not only does he have a below average win-loss ratio, but he also has a ridiculous amount of losses. He had a decent amount of rather mediocre seasons. Don't get me wrong, he did have some good seasons, but longevity certainly played a role in padding his stats. There's no question in my mind who the better pitcher was. Lucky for Sutton, he was able to stay healthy for the majority of his career, but he was never a top tier pitcher in any of the seasons he played. Guidry also got a bit of a late start and supposedly had health problems towards the end of his career. Just my opinion.
    Nolan Ryan: 292 losses
    Cy Young: 316 losses
    Walter Johnson: 279 losses

    ...

    On a side note, who thinks J.R. Richard WOULD HAVE BEEN a Hall of Famer had his career progressed at the rate he was going? I know lambeausouth seems to know his way around Baseball Reference... is there a way to tell what could have been at the end of his career had he not had the stroke?
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