02-12-2013, 02:20 PM #1
Why Is This Hobby So Unkind To Some Of Its Players ?
There are quite a few players that don't even get a nod. The two incredible players below are prime examples:
These two greats can't get a break no-how.
Others that are having a tough time in the Hobby nowadays:
Shanahan - Falling Fast, as he is hated as the Sheriff
Floppa - Dropping off the radar screen
Tkachuk - Hated
Pronger - Hated and nothing, can't give away his cards
Chelios - Hated
Modano - Being forgotten (I list some Modano cards, over 40 times, no dice) and I list them for peanuts. They used to sell like hotcakes.
Bondra - Forgotten
Lindros - Really dropping off, especially really tough parallels from the 90's.
Brind A' Mour - Nothing
Primeau - Nothing
Mogilny - Nothing
Scott Stevens - Nothing, unless it's a Rookie or #/10
Turgeon - A small smattering of Quebecers, but largely nobody else.
Rob Blake - Little to no activity
Luc Robitaille - Before the Cup win, he was in the forgotten stage among many.
Tony Amonte - I don't know anybody that buys or trades a single card of his.
Certainly I understand that these guys are all retired, yet many of them have made contributions to Hockey that some wildly collectible players will never make.
It's unfortunate, that success on the ice, does not translate to success in the Hobby. There are probably many that I've missed, but these come to mind immediately.
02-12-2013, 02:51 PM #2
It's not restricted to hockey, it happens across all sports. I collect basketball, and I find that I can pick up autos of top-50 players like George Gervin, Elgin Baylor and Bob Pettit for $10 each. You can't even get a Jerryd Bayless or Kemba Walker for that price.
I've seen very average rookies sell for more than I've paid on some of my Bill Russell autos...I just don't get it, either, but that's how the hobby goes.
02-12-2013, 03:01 PM #3
This is a rookie and vintage driven hobby, those guys are in the middle of the ether. It's also a team driven hobby, and almost all of them played in America, you try finding hockey wax in Las Vegas, or even Seattle! I have one or two memorablia cards of all of those guys, but they're parts of jersey sets that I wanted to complete, not guys I'd ever chase otherwise.
Plus most of their rookies and subsequent cardscame out in the MASS-produced 90's, I don't have the binder space for a "worthless" player collection, I already have Markus Naslund hahahahaaaaa. There's still a ton of unopened product full of those guys :(
02-12-2013, 03:21 PM #4
At the end of the day, on-ice performance is meaningless and popularity is everything. Look at a guy like Trevor Linden. He's still immensely popular among Canucks fans despite playing a lot of his career while Oates and Francis were playing. Oates was a great player, but he was an "and" player. Neely and Oates, Hull and Oates (heh) etc. He never hit that level that Hull and Neely did. That said, even Hull gets little hobby love in comparison to his accomplishments, Sakic has dwindled a lot too.
On-ice performance can be a good indicator of how popular a player is. However, it is not a rule and it's popularity, not stats that drive the hobby. If accomplishments alone drove the hobby, Lecavalier would be worth more hobbywise
02-12-2013, 04:25 PM #5
Untrue. Oates is to me is as good, if not a better passer than Gretzky was. You demean him in comparing him to a guy like Neely. If you mean in Popularity, yes Neely was more popular because he played more in popular franchises than Oates did, but if you mean in productivity, NO. Neely belongs nowhere on the list of greats, & absolutely nowhere near Oates in accomplishment.
Adam Oates - Goals - 341 , Assists - 1079, Points - 1420
Can Neely - Goals - 395, Assists - 299, Points - 694
Neely entered the Hall among the lowest point producers in Hall history. I understand how you love him, because the Canucks drafted him, if was so great, why didn't they stick with him?
I went to school with Cam Neely's older Sister, he lived a few blocks from me, and I knew who he was as kid while his military parents were stationed before they moved on. I am not however blinded by any type of loyalty.
Neely, Langway, Gillies, Federko, no business being in the Hall of Fame.
Clark Gillies is from my hometown, and Bernie from Foam Pie, which is what we call Foam Lake, back home in Sask. I played against both of them, Gillies in Peewee, Federko in Midget, we are both almost 57. But no way am I blinded by the fact that neither of them belong in the Hall, same with Neely.
02-12-2013, 04:43 PM #6
I meant popularity. Neely and Hull were just examples because that's kind of how he's remembered, as the other guy to the most popular players. Kind of the George Harrison of hockey, in a way.
02-12-2013, 04:58 PM #7
Trevor Linden played in Vancouver for most of his career and we're nuts about the hockey and the hobby here. If he had been a Jet/Coyote or a Blue I'd have as many of his cards as I do of Shane Doan or Bernie Federko.....................location location location!!!
02-12-2013, 05:30 PM #8
It's all popularity.
If we go back to 2005-06, who had the better rookie season? Ovechkin or Crosby? Until Crosby won a Cup..... Ovechkin was having (statistically) the better career. Despite all this, Crosby was selling for about double what OV was.
Some of the older players mentioned here...... look at what kind of player they were, and where they played. Ron Francis was one of the greats - but there was really three phases two his career. Started in Hartford (where players could be ignored) moved to Pittsburgh, where he played 3rd fiddel to Lemieux & Jagr, and then back to Hartfor / Carolina.... where he was ignored (yes, there was a stop in Toronto too - but I don't really count that).
So, Francis played for a team that that has never been particularly popular with the masses (Whalers / Hurricanes) and also for the Penguins - where he wasn't the main player.... and probably goes down on the list of "all time important Penguins" somewhere around Bryan Trottier, Rob Brown, Paul Coffey, Kevin Stevens, or John Cullen. Guys that were very good while they were in Pittsburgh - but are not really remembered for being Penguins (or, in the case of Brown & Stevens - barely remembered).
Steve Yzerman (who I do not believe was as good a player as Francis) has a huge following due to being one of the all time great Wings, multiple Stanley Cups, etc. Canadian Olympic Gold helps him too. Huge following mean his cards sell for pretty high prices.
So the problem with a guy like Ronny Francis.... who is going to buy his cards? I would think there are a lot of collectors out there that collect "HOF" players, but typically they're not looking for more than one or two cards of any particular player, unless the guy is a personal favorite. There are probably a few Whalers / 'Canes collectors out there.... and I would think there's got to be a couple of Francis collectors too. Myself, I have a Francis autograph in my collection.... but what would I do with a second one? The answer is "probably trade it" which means I likely won't ever go out of my way to pick up another one.
Card values are dictated by popularity, and popularity only. How good of a player they are (were) is only one aspect of what makes the guy popular. He doesn't have the cult following that a guy like Neely has, or the national icon / big (hockey) market winner like Steve Yzerman does.... so the mass appeal just isn't there.
Larry Robinson may actually be the best defenseman to ever play the game (I have read some great arguments as to why, not really the point of my post though) and on virtually anyone's lists..... he is certainly one of the best handful of defenseman to ever play, yet his autographs sell only slightly better than a 4th line scrub. Why is that?
02-12-2013, 05:53 PM #9
You also have to remember, Crosby had a lot of hype from Pee Wee onward. He was given the name "The Next One" in reference to Gretzky being called the "Great One" when he was 15 years old.
Ovechkin and Malkin had to bring their own utensils and food to the Dinner Party, Crosby's place was set with the finest China and the finest food in anticipation of his arrival. Huge difference.
02-12-2013, 07:26 PM #10
I've always wondered why Ron Francis isn't as well known. 23 seasons, 4th all-time points leader, 2nd (to Gretzky) in assists all-time, 3rd all-time in games played. But he is pretty much an unknown outside hockey fans, and even then inside the hockey community he gets far less recognition than he deserves.