Thread: separation of church and state
02-19-2013, 03:02 PM #1
separation of church and state
this is perhaps the least understood, most misquoted, and most manipulated Amendment in the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution.
I own my own copy and have pulled it out and am going to directly quote from it. (yes I am weird for owning a copy)
first off we all know this verse does not even exist in the Bill of Rights. second, it derived from a misquote of Thomas Jefferson, where he wrote of a "wall" of separation between church and state. but like most things, when taking out of context people have made it into what they want. the phrase was used to assure the church that the state would stay out of their business, not the other way around.
so lets see what good old #1 really states;
Rights of Religion and Expression (notice we are covering two topics not just religion)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise of;
there is nothing that states religion is to stay out of the state (by the way my state motto is, "With God, all things are possible") nor religion is to stay out of schools or any public place.
teaching religious subjects is in all establishments of higher education, they are just left out of most schools from grades 1-12.
if we are worrying about indoctrination why are we teaching anything? newtonian physics have proven to be wrong, and now with quantum physics who knows what we will discover. whether in history or evolution we are always changing our understanding of how things might have been, and religion is the same way.
just like the religious nuts who try and twist things to the extreme, now the anti religious nuts have come along and twisted it to the extreme in the other direction, both are wrong, and both are nuts.
02-19-2013, 03:11 PM #2
I have no problem with schools teaching comparitive religion in an objective and unbiased manner. We were taught that in schools that I grew up in and none of us as far as I know became right wing religious fanatics. What I have a problem with is public schools which are agents of the state endorsing any particular religion or atheism for that matter. I prefer my gov't to be religiously neutral. If I want to hear from God I will go to him directly not our corrupt and often incompetent gov't.
02-19-2013, 03:13 PM #3
In any sort of Democracy, religion coming into policy is unavoidable. If the majority hold a common religious belief, they will live by, and vote for, said belief. Thee problem is not with religious values coming into law, the problem is religious people falsely claiming their own values as "religious" and trying to import those values into law.
Christians are a perfect example. Jesus said righteousness comes from love and nothing more. Yet Christians hatefully try to impose their warped interpretations into law for any reason but love.
Church and State don't need to be separated. It's unnecessary. What does need to be separated is idiots and politics.
02-19-2013, 03:15 PM #4
02-19-2013, 03:16 PM #5
02-19-2013, 03:30 PM #6
wickabee, that was one of the best posts I have ever read. simple, direct, and 100% accurate.
veggie, we would not have a senate or congress.
02-19-2013, 03:33 PM #7
02-19-2013, 04:26 PM #8
How do people misquote Jefferson?
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.
To me, the even more telling line than the wall of separation is, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship".
As Jefferson calls religion as something that exists "solely between Man and his God", how could one argue that he's being misquoted?
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02-19-2013, 05:31 PM #9
I'm not sure who said what, but I feel that religion should not influence legislation nor should a government invoke authority over a religion. I do think that religious institutions should not be safe havens from standard taxes that normal businesses have to pay. I think most religious institutions should separate their charitable organizations from their business organizations. I say that not really knowing what taxes religious institutions pay or don't pay. Maybe someone can shed some light on that aspect.
No matter if it's law or was a misquote I believe people should be completely free to believe what they want as well as people shouldn't be forced to follow religious ideals or rules by the U.S. government.
02-19-2013, 05:36 PM #10
Oh really Shrew?
The establishment clause is misunderstood and you don't like the fact that out of it came "Separation of church and state"?
Now you know how I feel about the Second Amendment!Logic and reason is all you need.