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  1. #11


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    That's actually a really good comparison.

  2. #12
    What is so bad about being Neutral?

    Why does the government have to take issue with such a polarizing topic such as religion.

    Our founders were pretty smart in the way the constructed this nation.

    I just wish they had been more direct and actually wrote:

    "Government will take a neutral stand on religion, and religion will also take a neutral stand on government".


    If anyone here wants to live in a religious country so badly.....there are plenty available for you: Uganda, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

    If there is something this country got RIGHT, it is the FREEDOM of and FROM Religion!


    ^In terms of religious freedom.

    Source: http://oproject.wordpress.com/2007/0...gious-freedom/
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  3. #13
    I wish people would do research and see what James Madison( the father of the Constitution) wrote. He believed religion was elevated without government interference. The separation protects Christians. It does not make them become Muslims, Hindus , etc. It protects all citizens.
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  4. #14
    alex, perfect comparison.

    crazy people take the 2nd to the extreme, just like the 1st. I agree 100%. but just like owning a firearm is not the real issue with gun laws, keeping religion out of school is not the real issue with the Bill of Rights.

    bossman,

    To me, the even more telling line than the wall of separation is, "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship".
    to me, this shows how government cannot interfer with faith, it has nothing to do with religion not being part of government or public schools.
    Jay Shrewsbury
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  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    alex, perfect comparison.

    crazy people take the 2nd to the extreme, just like the 1st. I agree 100%. but just like owning a firearm is not the real issue with gun laws, keeping religion out of school is not the real issue with the Bill of Rights.

    bossman,



    to me, this shows how government cannot interfer with faith, it has nothing to do with religion not being part of government or public schools.
    But it's a two way street. If religion exists solely between a man and his God (by the way, I fully agree with both of them on this), and one can deduce from that that government can't interfere with faith (an obvious inference), then it only stands to reason that it also means that faith cannot interfere with government.

    Some people seem to be a bit deluded on this issue. They think that a Senator can't pray on the floor of the Senate, or that a child can't pray at a public school, which is of course, ridiculous. People can openly pray in public, display religious symbols and go about their daily religious life without interference. Nobody keeps religion out of public schools, there's simply a law against religious practices being lead by the school, as to not ostracize people of different faiths. I went to public school, and every morning before class there was a group of about 40-50 students that would meet out by the flagpole to pray and have short discussions about their faith. Not one person ever tried to stop them or raise a fuss.

    Where this becomes a major issue is when the difference between facts and faith come in to play. As an individual, you can decide your faith, but you really can't decide your facts. If I wanted to, I could decide to be a Christian, a Buddhist, Atheist, whatever. But I can't decide that Abraham Lincoln was shot in Ford's Theatre in April of 1865. It's just a fact. That's what schools are there for: to teach math, history, the most prominent and probable scientific theory, etc.

    The pure essence of faith is that it often runs against what you see in your everyday life as being factual. I can bet surely as anything that no Christian on SCF has seen someone be resurrected. Nobody has seen a bearded man part a giant body of water. But many have the faith that it indeed happened once upon a time. And that's fine. Schools should teach about the existence of faith and religion, and its variations. But for someone of faith to sit there and say that it's the job of the public school to teach Creationism (of which there isn't scientific evidence) as a legitimate alternative to evolution (of which there is an abundance of evidence) is religion overstepping its boundaries.

    This is a very simple problem, when you cut to its core. When I put myself back in public school as an 18 year old, there are two things that I know for certain. Number one is that I don't want my school overseeing what is said in my church. And secondly, I don't want my church overseeing what is said in my school. It's our duty as human beings to walk our own personal line between faith and fact, sift through all possible information, and develop our true selves. And when one part oversteps its boundaries, you start to walk a very dangerous line.
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  6. #16
    but human evolution does not have abundant evidence.

    O.Tungenesis = one bone, just one, and even scientists state it might not be hominid.

    One of the few things about O. tugenensis that is not controversial is its age. Sediments in which the bones were found have consistently been dated at 6 million years old, making O. tugenensis the oldest hominid by far, if in fact the species is a hominid.
    I could keep going on and on

    fact and theory are not the same
    Jay Shrewsbury
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by pghin08 View Post
    But it's a two way street. If religion exists solely between a man and his God (by the way, I fully agree with both of them on this), and one can deduce from that that government can't interfere with faith (an obvious inference), then it only stands to reason that it also means that faith cannot interfere with government.

    Some people seem to be a bit deluded on this issue. They think that a Senator can't pray on the floor of the Senate, or that a child can't pray at a public school, which is of course, ridiculous. People can openly pray in public, display religious symbols and go about their daily religious life without interference. Nobody keeps religion out of public schools, there's simply a law against religious practices being lead by the school, as to not ostracize people of different faiths. I went to public school, and every morning before class there was a group of about 40-50 students that would meet out by the flagpole to pray and have short discussions about their faith. Not one person ever tried to stop them or raise a fuss.

    Where this becomes a major issue is when the difference between facts and faith come in to play. As an individual, you can decide your faith, but you really can't decide your facts. If I wanted to, I could decide to be a Christian, a Buddhist, Atheist, whatever. But I can't decide that Abraham Lincoln was shot in Ford's Theatre in April of 1865. It's just a fact. That's what schools are there for: to teach math, history, the most prominent and probable scientific theory, etc.

    The pure essence of faith is that it often runs against what you see in your everyday life as being factual. I can bet surely as anything that no Christian on SCF has seen someone be resurrected. Nobody has seen a bearded man part a giant body of water. But many have the faith that it indeed happened once upon a time. And that's fine. Schools should teach about the existence of faith and religion, and its variations. But for someone of faith to sit there and say that it's the job of the public school to teach Creationism (of which there isn't scientific evidence) as a legitimate alternative to evolution (of which there is an abundance of evidence) is religion overstepping its boundaries.

    This is a very simple problem, when you cut to its core. When I put myself back in public school as an 18 year old, there are two things that I know for certain. Number one is that I don't want my school overseeing what is said in my church. And secondly, I don't want my church overseeing what is said in my school. It's our duty as human beings to walk our own personal line between faith and fact, sift through all possible information, and develop our true selves. And when one part oversteps its boundaries, you start to walk a very dangerous line.
    excellent post!
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  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    but human evolution does not have abundant evidence.

    O.Tungenesis = one bone, just one, and even scientists state it might not be hominid.



    I could keep going on and on

    fact and theory are not the same
    I'm trying to think about what amount of time I spent on evolution when I was in school. I remember learning about the theories of how the earth was created and evolution, but I really don't remember how much time we spent on it and at what grade. I do know that the world creation was discussed as just that... theories and we discussed multiple theories that were based off of tangible ideas. I can't really remember is my teachers told us about human evolution as fact or not. I'm not sure about today but is evolution really discussed at that great of length in school science classes? For me it was more about physics and chemistry principles and learning about physical biology. Evolution seems like such a small percentage of the curriculum from what I remember. I honestly don't remember discussing in classes any time past junior high. After that the science classes are more focused on physics, biology, and chemistry.

    If you introduce creationism then you have to introduce more versions of creationism besides just the christian version. Seems like much more of an elective type of class than a required course like physics, biology, and chemistry.
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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    but human evolution does not have abundant evidence.

    O.Tungenesis = one bone, just one, and even scientists state it might not be hominid.



    I could keep going on and on

    fact and theory are not the same
    That's why I said that it's the job of the public schools to teach the best and most probable theory when it comes to science. And I'm sorry, there is WAY more evidence that we evolved from a universal common ancestor. Do we know everything about how we came to exist? Of course not. But creationism isn't a theory, frankly. It's a religious belief. That's where the difference is.
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  10. #20
    to me you would be the classic Bible basher, which has been going on forever.

    the fact that the Bible in accurate with foreign rulers, geography, military stradegy, mean nothing, you just want the miracles.

    we have had to hear how inaccurate the bible was, how places in the bible did not exist, but when they were found we only heard more excuses. how Jesus could not have existed because Pilate couldn't have existed because the romans kept such accurate records, no pilate no jesus, but wait the proof of Pilate was found, so now lets go to the miracles.

    proof of miracles? you cannot prove miracles with empirical science.

    you want Moses to part the sea of reeds, how about have a scientists create life out of nothing and have it evolve into a human? you can't do that either.

    faith in my god is no different than faith in your science, the human evolution empirical proof is so limited but yet accepted in full.
    Jay Shrewsbury
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