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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzer540 View Post
    There are SO many things that we all have "faith" in and "believe" in during out lifetime. This might be a stupid example, but might get you to think...

    Have you ever had a DNA test that your dad or mom is really your dad or mom? Most probably haven't but just believe them to be your parents because of what they say and do.


    It comes down to Faith... even if you are NOT a Believer. You say there is not proof that God exists and you say that there is proof that things existed before you were born. Well, how do you know? Science? Well you are putting FAITH in what scientists are quoting and researching are true. Have you seen the evidence first hand? Have you met the scientist's first hand? You are trusting them to be giving you evidence that is true and having faith that what they say is right.

    Believer's of God are the same way. They have Faith and trust that the bible or other sources are giving them proof that God exists.

    That's why on these forums- there is so much hatred and stabbing at people's beliefs and religion, or lack there of. WHY? We all believe that our sources and what we believe is right? That is fine with me, but to go after people and what they believe starts to get real old and the more attacking there is- it seems like the more afraid you are, and the more you have to convince yourself you are right.... why else would you be so set in attacking?

    Why is there so much anemosity towards what others believe? Proof or no Proof, I have pointed this out before... our whole lives and most of our decisions we make come down to faith whether we realize it or not?

    I have faith that my girlfriend won't cheat on me? Do I have proof? No! Do I question things... maybe! Do I go after her and grill her about why this or why that or give me proof, etc? NO! I have faith... God exists because I have faith. If you don't have that same faith that he exists... that's fine... but just saying proof is ONLY valid if you have faith in it. We all can see things differently, even proof, on what it means.
    Your faith comparisons are missing a key component. Faith in the "religious story" requires one to suspend logic in order to believe the numerous impossible claims presented. Faith in my parents being who they are, or my girlfriend being faithful do not require me to abandon logic. Now on the other hand, if my mom was Asian and my dad was Black I would have to abandon all logic to still believe them to be my birth parents. But seeing as they are both Anglo-saxon it doesn't take a suspension of logic to have faith in what they tell me.
    Last edited by habsheaven; 03-04-2013 at 12:37 PM.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    Yes, it was meant to trivialise every "christian experience"
    Because you know me and more specifically what I'm referring to, correct?

    May I ask what sort of process or commitment you have put into seeking God before deciding to commit to your atheist beliefs? Or did you start your journey by seeking info to disprove God before any investigation into faith?

    I'm not trying to bait you into any answer, or convince you God exists. It will just give me a better mind frame of where you're at and where you're coming from to discuss.
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  3. #33
    Christian belief does not abandon logic?!? I understand what you mean... but that is not true on 'just' having faith and not using common sense or logic. Yeah, there are certain things where it has to be faith and faith alone, but other times there is logically explanations or logical analysis about things.

    I believe in evolution... but not in complete evolution. Meaning, it is pretty obvious that things evolve (logic) but I do not believe in complete evolution where that is the only truth and everything "just" evolved from nothing (faith)
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  4. #34
    As Humans we ALL want assurance, proof, intellectual certainties. But the fact remains the we are limited. We can't have that. We don't know the whys and hows and whats about everything. That does not mean that things don't exist just because WE don't understand it.

    Faith steps in when logic sometimes can't give us assurance. That does not mean (and I will be the first to say a lot of religious believers do things like this) that we do not use our own common sense, logic, and resources our there to STUDY and to understand as much as we can with the resources we have.. but sometimes we just will never understand.

    I look at it this way. Logic and human intuition tells me my dad shouldn't punish me. He shouldn't let me suffer when he knows how to end my suffering, etc... (i.e. he tells me NOT to put my hand on a stove several times... I do it anyways while he watches. I burn myself and cry and say "why did you let me do that.")

    but... Faith steps in and says he does things because he wants me to learn and he loves me enough that he will let me do things on my own so that I will learn and understand on my own to build my character and my decisions.

    does that make sense?
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  5. #35


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    Anyone else think the recent rise in atheism is related somehow to the recent rise in false senses of entitlement?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmutt View Post
    Because you know me and more specifically what I'm referring to, correct?

    May I ask what sort of process or commitment you have put into seeking God before deciding to commit to your atheist beliefs? Or did you start your journey by seeking info to disprove God before any investigation into faith?

    I'm not trying to bait you into any answer, or convince you God exists. It will just give me a better mind frame of where you're at and where you're coming from to discuss.
    So when I tell you I haven't committed any time to seeking out God you can tell me THAT is my problem? I haven't committed any time to seeking out leprechauns either, for what it's worth. Should I keep an open mind on that too. Seriously though, I grew up with the same religious background as many other people. The whole religious story is filled with GLARING inconsistencies and IMPOSSIBILITIES. I am not about to suspend LOGIC until such a time as I can make myself believe what religion is trying to sell.

    How much time did you spend asking your religion the TOUGH questions, before you professed your belief. I would wager you haven't asked the tough questions; and if you did, you accepted the standard answers without offering even a basic examination of the credibility of such answers.
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  7. #37


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    Wow. He even said he wasn't baiting and you took the hook anyway.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzer540 View Post
    As Humans we ALL want assurance, proof, intellectual certainties. But the fact remains the we are limited. We can't have that. We don't know the whys and hows and whats about everything. That does not mean that things don't exist just because WE don't understand it.

    Faith steps in when logic sometimes can't give us assurance. That does not mean (and I will be the first to say a lot of religious believers do things like this) that we do not use our own common sense, logic, and resources our there to STUDY and to understand as much as we can with the resources we have.. but sometimes we just will never understand.

    I look at it this way. Logic and human intuition tells me my dad shouldn't punish me. He shouldn't let me suffer when he knows how to end my suffering, etc... (i.e. he tells me NOT to put my hand on a stove several times... I do it anyways while he watches. I burn myself and cry and say "why did you let me do that.")

    but... Faith steps in and says he does things because he wants me to learn and he loves me enough that he will let me do things on my own so that I will learn and understand on my own to build my character and my decisions.

    does that make sense?

    First bold: I do not want proof. I want a "story" that makes sense. I do not want to base my beliefs on a story filled with magical events.

    Second bold: No, it doesn't make sense. A child putting his hand on a stove does not have the capability to look at any thing logically. He more likely has "faith" that nothing bad can happen to hiim in the presence of his father. The only "logic" being demonstrated is being done so by the father. Thinking logically that he can teach his child a valuable lesson by allowing him to feel pain in a controlled situation.
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  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    Wow. He even said he wasn't baiting and you took the hook anyway.
    Funny, I don't feel like he "hooked" me into anything. Was I supposed to not reply? I knew what he was getting at and addressed it in my post. I look forward to him making another cast.
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  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    So when I tell you I haven't committed any time to seeking out God you can tell me THAT is my problem? I haven't committed any time to seeking out leprechauns either, for what it's worth. Should I keep an open mind on that too. Seriously though, I grew up with the same religious background as many other people. The whole religious story is filled with GLARING inconsistencies and IMPOSSIBILITIES. I am not about to suspend LOGIC until such a time as I can make myself believe what religion is trying to sell.

    How much time did you spend asking your religion the TOUGH questions, before you professed your belief. I would wager you haven't asked the tough questions; and if you did, you accepted the standard answers without offering even a basic examination of the credibility of such answers.
    Clearly this conversation isn't going anywhere with that attitude or perception of me. I truly was just curious. If you re-read any of my posts I have in no way put down atheists, mocked your beliefs or rationale. Ridiculous.

    As for me and my TOUGH questions, I have had many. I was in a close knit Bible study for years where we were free to ask open and honest hard-hitting questions, have meaningful discussions and grow in my beliefs. As much as I'm trying to avoid any stereotypical Christian behavior, you're pretty much word for word in line with typical Atheist rationale that I've experienced... including assumption that Christians are not educated free-thinkers. When you speak in stereotypes and pigeon hole masses you're bound to disconnect. The reason I asked about you personally was so that I could continue to discuss my experience on a personal level. Nothing more or nothing less.
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