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  1. #31





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    Beckett (66)
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    It depends.

    If people are killing themselves due to bullying....that's a problem.

    If people are killing themselves because they simply don't want to live, then that's their own business.

    We would need to see the numbers of people killing themselves due to third party influences, and address those influences.

    When it comes to bullying, that's an easy one....we need to stop bullying in schools, the internet, and any other places where it might be rampant.

    That's the thing. Regardless of the reason, people taking their own lives at high rates is a problem. I don't care about the morals of suicide and it's still a problem.

    I do find it interesting that you thought well enough to mention bullying, but neglected to mention mental illness, which is likely a bigger cause of suicide than bullying, though we may also never know that.

    My point is, you had the nerve to tell me I was cherry picking stats. Look at yourself. You're pointing out the good points of Canada, Japan, Europe, etc and not realizing that they don't have everything figured out either. Yes, Japan has less violent crimes, but their teen suicide rate is WAY higher, for example. When I point that out, you say it doesn't matter and start talking about the morality of suicide (which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all and makes me wonder what conversation you're having and with who).

  2. #32




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    That's the thing. Regardless of the reason, people taking their own lives at high rates is a problem. I don't care about the morals of suicide and it's still a problem.

    Fair enough.

    But one can try to stop bullying, treat mental illness, and prevent other influences....but one can't really stop someone from killing himself if they really want to.

    For example....I believe medical euthanasia should be completely legal.

    My point is, you had the nerve to tell me I was cherry picking stats. Look at yourself. You're pointing out the good points of Canada, Japan, Europe, etc and not realizing that they don't have everything figured out either. Yes, Japan has less violent crimes, but their teen suicide rate is WAY higher, for example. When I point that out, you say it doesn't matter and start talking about the morality of suicide (which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about at all and makes me wonder what conversation you're having and with who).

    I had the nerve to tell you of your cherry picking because you were...and so was I.

    But my cherry picking wasn't deliberate....it was to refute your own.

    I can't show ANY facts whatsoever to show that a rise in non-religion is better....because such facts don't exists.

    However, I can point to a variety of factors to show that there isn't a causation between being religious and moral.

    Some religious people are law obeying folks.....some non-religious people are the same....what did we learn?

    Not much.

    But one can't say that a more religious country is a more moral one.....for goodness sake, just look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq....these are some of the most religious countries on earth and they're filled with tons of problems.
    Last edited by JustAlex; 03-15-2013 at 10:28 PM.

  3. #33





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    Beckett (66)
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    Fair enough.

    But one can try to stop bullying, treat mental illness, and prevent other influences....but one can't really stop someone from killing himself if they really want to.

    Granted, but that's neither here nor there.

    [QUOTE=JustAlex;12587976]
    For example....I believe medical euthanasia should be completely legal.
    Nor is that.

    I had the nerve to tell you of your cherry picking because you were...and so was I.

    But my cherry picking wasn't deliberate....it was to refute your own.

    Given that an acceptable definition of "deliberate" is "on purpose" or "for a purpose," Llt's look at this statement.
    "My cherry picking wasn't deliberate, it was to refute your own," is equal to:
    "My cherry picking wasn't on purpose, it was to refute your own," is equal to:
    "My cherry picking wasn't for a purpose, it was to refute your own," is equal to
    "My cherry picking wasn't for a purpose, it was for the purpose of refuting your own"

    So you see how you contradicted yourself there and the logic and reasoning, combined with the data of definitions, that I used to come to my conclusion. You may call that semantics, I call it scientific linguistics and in the end, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

    To the purpose of what we're on about, I'd have to say the first "cherry" pick was whoever mentioned the economy of the 1930s. Who was that again...?
    Because ironically enough, I mentioned that in the 1930s the number of non-religious in the U.S was at 5%.....this was arguably one of (if not the WORST) moment in the history of the U.S. (Of course I'm talking about the great depression).

    Oh yeah.

    I can't show ANY facts whatsoever to show that a rise in non-religion is better....because such facts don't exists.

    However, I can point to a variety of factors to show that there isn't a causation between being religious and moral.

    And now you've tried to show a causation between a lack of religion and moral by cherry picking certain stats. You're look at criminal, I look at societal. Maybe this is why we simply can't agree.

    Some religious people are law obeying folks.....some non-religious people are the same....what did we learn?

    Not much.

    But one can't say that a more religious country is a more moral one.....for goodness sake, just look at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq....these are some of the most religious countries on earth and they're filled with tons of problems.

    Yep, and atheism is growing in the USA and look at your problems. Are they as bad as the countries you mentioned? Depends who you ask and which side they're from. I don't think I need to tell you that things are getting nuttier and nuttier in the US. Violence may be down in the past few years, but, since you mentioned the 1930s, where are violent crimes now compared to then?

    But you don't care because the economy is better.

  4. #34




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    [QUOTE=Wickabee;12588046]Granted, but that's neither here nor there.

    For example....I believe medical euthanasia should be completely legal.
    Nor is that.


    Given that an acceptable definition of "deliberate" is "on purpose" or "for a purpose," Llt's look at this statement.
    "My cherry picking wasn't deliberate, it was to refute your own," is equal to:
    "My cherry picking wasn't on purpose, it was to refute your own," is equal to:
    "My cherry picking wasn't for a purpose, it was to refute your own," is equal to
    "My cherry picking wasn't for a purpose, it was for the purpose of refuting your own"

    So you see how you contradicted yourself there and the logic and reasoning, combined with the data of definitions, that I used to come to my conclusion. You may call that semantics, I call it scientific linguistics and in the end, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

    To the purpose of what we're on about, I'd have to say the first "cherry" pick was whoever mentioned the economy of the 1930s. Who was that again...?


    Oh yeah.


    And now you've tried to show a causation between a lack of religion and moral by cherry picking certain stats. You're look at criminal, I look at societal. Maybe this is why we simply can't agree.



    Yep, and atheism is growing in the USA and look at your problems. Are they as bad as the countries you mentioned? Depends who you ask and which side they're from. I don't think I need to tell you that things are getting nuttier and nuttier in the US. Violence may be down in the past few years, but, since you mentioned the 1930s, where are violent crimes now compared to then?

    But you don't care because the economy is better.

    Wickabee, do we in the U.S. and Canada behead people in the streets? Nutter and nutter in the U.S. ? Do we still have slavery?

    Could you admit there is no causation between religous belief and violence? I'll start pointing out more examples if you would like.

  5. #35




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    See...that's the thing.

    If we get into this morality issue.....then I will easily be able to go into the bible, koran, and any other holy book to show just how immoral it really is.

    For example how the bible endorses slavery.

    I was actually wanting to avoid that because Shrew and any other christian will tell me that the OT doesn't matter anymore and christianity is all about following the teachings of Jesus.

    But whatever, the main point of this thread was to show that non-religion is up in the U.S.

    I never wanted to see it turn into a correlation and causation between religion and morality because it gets very messy.

  6. #36





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    Wickabee, do we in the U.S. and Canada behead people in the streets? Nutter and nutter in the U.S. ? Do we still have slavery?

    Well, a guy did get beheaded on a bus in Manitoba a couple years back. If you're talking police though, then no, we just tazer them to death in firing squad fashion, or kick them in the face while they're complying with orders. You guys have police who shoot nine innocent people trying to catch 1 guy.
    The crazy part is things are at a point where there are legitimate arguments in favour of all these actions.

    Nuttier and nuttier? Darn right.

    Could you admit there is no causation between religous belief and violence? I'll start pointing out more examples if you would like.

    Religion has caused violence for millenia. I've never said otherwise. It causes grand scale violence. What the US is seeing right now is minor violence on a grand scale. Day-to-day violence is not condoned by religion, Holy War is. Yes, many use religion to justify violence day-to-day, but that isn't the fault of religion any more than drunk driving is the fault of the driver's manual.
    The warfare will always be around with or without religion. Lose religion and you lose one excuse of many for war. In day-to-day life, though, there are many people with the "there's no god so what I do doesn't matter" attitude who, if they were believers, would act very differently than they do now. This isn't to say religion is necessary for morality in humans. I'm not religious by any means, though I am spiritual. What I'm saying is that, for many people, religion is the moral standard, whether it is in your life or not and whether it has to be or can be replaced in theirs. Many people use religion to leave the life of crime and drugs and whatever because it does work for many many people.

  7. #37





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    Beckett (66)
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    See...that's the thing.

    If we get into this morality issue.....then I will easily be able to go into the bible, koran, and any other holy book to show just how immoral it really is.

    For example how the bible endorses slavery.

    I was actually wanting to avoid that because Shrew and any other christian will tell me that the OT doesn't matter anymore and christianity is all about following the teachings of Jesus.

    But whatever, the main point of this thread was to show that non-religion is up in the U.S.

    I never wanted to see it turn into a correlation and causation between religion and morality because it gets very messy.

    So it could have ended after the first thread and you'd have made your whole point?


    neat.

  8. #38




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    Well, a guy did get beheaded on a bus in Manitoba a couple years back. If you're talking police though, then no, we just tazer them to death in firing squad fashion, or kick them in the face while they're complying with orders. You guys have police who shoot nine innocent people trying to catch 1 guy.
    The crazy part is things are at a point where there are legitimate arguments in favour of all these actions.

    Nuttier and nuttier? Darn right.


    Religion has caused violence for millenia. I've never said otherwise. It causes grand scale violence. What the US is seeing right now is minor violence on a grand scale. Day-to-day violence is not condoned by religion, Holy War is. Yes, many use religion to justify violence day-to-day, but that isn't the fault of religion any more than drunk driving is the fault of the driver's manual.
    The warfare will always be around with or without religion. Lose religion and you lose one excuse of many for war. In day-to-day life, though, there are many people with the "there's no god so what I do doesn't matter" attitude who, if they were believers, would act very differently than they do now. This isn't to say religion is necessary for morality in humans. I'm not religious by any means, though I am spiritual. What I'm saying is that, for many people, religion is the moral standard, whether it is in your life or not and whether it has to be or can be replaced in theirs. Many people use religion to leave the life of crime and drugs and whatever because it does work for many many people.

    I asked for a simple answer. Does religion views and violence correlate? I think no. I think the society causes deaths. Another example: Communist Russia under Stalin and the Crusades.
    Millions hurt in these events with different "religous" views.

    So is there a coorrelation between religous views and violence?

  9. #39





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    Beckett (66)
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    I asked for a simple answer. Does religion views and violence correlate? I think no. I think the society causes deaths. Another example: Communist Russia under Stalin and the Crusades.
    Millions hurt in these events with different "religous" views.

    So is there a coorrelation between religous views and violence?

    Like I said, religion causes violence. I've never said otherwise.

  10. #40




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    Like I said, religion causes violence. I've never said otherwise.

    You implied earlier in thread that non-belief was causing problems. You implied that the U.S. was nutter because of lack of belief. Now you say that religion causes violence.

    I am not understanding your point. Could you please explain because I do not understand? I am not being sarcastic. I really want to know.

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