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  1. #11
    alex,

    so you are equating a decline in religion as something good. but yet we have had more issue with not only what wickabee pointed out, but also in crime, divorce, drugs, hate groups, jobs are going down, welfare going up, and there is more divide than ever.
    if anything your chart shows the need for religion in daily life.

    it is ok not to like something or even to hate something(though I try not to), but it does not mean you should breed hate or use hate in any way.
    Jay Shrewsbury
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  2. #12


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Beckett (66)

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    Also, I don't frown on religion. I don't like it for me and most religions are just thieves, but I don't frown on it.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    And what are the numbers on school shootings, divorce rates and teen suicides comparing now with the 1930s?

    Or is the economy everything to you?
    This is cherry picking.

    I focused on the economy because that's what I thought you were reflecting your comment on.

    Number of school shootings is hardly a problem compared to the number of gun related deaths which is about 10,000/year in America, but as we have discussed in the past, this is a cultural problem America has....it has NOTHING to do with religion.

    Ironically enough, more liberals (who account for the greatest number of non-religious) are more in favor of strict gun prevention laws.....including myself.....although admittedly, I am seeing the light and I realize that no amount of laws will actually do anything until we change our "culture of guns".

    Divorce and suicides.....I don't have to get into that, as I'm sure you should know that being non-religious has nothing to do with moral dilemmas.


    So, I guess you ARE trying to make a case for a more non-religious country leads to problems?

    If so, I am very disappointed in such a claim.

    It is baseless, and easily refutable.

    Europe as a whole is a very non-violent continent, with high educational standings, high life expectancy, very good health care, low gun crime, low rape crime.....and yet they are MUCH more non-religious and atheistic than the U.S:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...rometer_2010-1

    ^Focus on the poll by "Eurobarometor"

    40% Atheists in France

    34% Atheists in Sweden

    27% Atheists in Germany

    25% Atheists in UK

    The "Non-Religious" numbers must be much higher since this is a combination of ANYONE who doesn't practice religion regardless of their belief in god.


    Wick, you don't have an argument here....you own country shows that:

    "...Adams used a recent Canada-U.S. poll to demonstrate the divide. The poll shows 58 per cent of Americans saying that it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person, while only 30 per cent of Canadians agree to this.

    And while 45 per cent of Americans now say they go to church every week, only 20 per cent (down from 85 per cent in the 1950s) of Canadians can say the same thing."

    Source: http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/04/0...-us-canada.htm
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    so you are equating a decline in religion as something good.
    I personally think it is good, since you already know how I feel about religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    but yet we have had more issue with not only what wickabee pointed out, but also in crime, divorce, drugs, hate groups, jobs are going down, welfare going up, and there is more divide than ever.
    Shrew, there is no correlation between being religious and morality.

    I'm sorry but there isn't.

    And as proof, I showed how Europe is a much more atheistic/non-religious continent and yet their numbers fare much better than the U.S when it comes to violence, education, health care, life expectancy, etc.
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  5. #15


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Beckett (66)

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    You pull out the economy, ignoring everything else, and have the nerve to tell me I'm cherry picking?

    Wow.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    You pull out the economy, ignoring everything else, and have the nerve to tell me I'm cherry picking?

    Wow.
    How did I ignore it?

    I addressed it....and furthermore, I actually did substantiate my claims.

    I easily showed that religion and morality DO NOT go hand in hand.

    IF it did, then Europe should be the most immoral continent on this planet filled with crime, suicides, and all kinds of horrific things.

    And yet it's NOT.

    Also, I could easily use Japan in the example too.

    They are one of the MOST peaceful nations in this planet....and yet let's look at their numbers concerning religion:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

    ^Focus on the Pie chart from 2011.

    67%.....let me say that again.....67% of Japanese are Non-Religious!

    Explain, how Japan has lower crime, lower violence, higher life expectancy, higher educational stats, better health care than the U.S???

    You assertion is BASELESS, I have evidence on my side....I'm not ignoring your claims, I'm addressing them.

    You on the other hand have not said anything in regards to your OWN country which is MUCH LESS religious than the U.S and also has less crime, better health care, etc.
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  7. #17


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Beckett (66)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAlex View Post
    This is cherry picking.

    I focused on the economy because that's what I thought you were reflecting your comment on.

    Number of school shootings is hardly a problem compared to the number of gun related deaths which is about 10,000/year in America, but as we have discussed in the past, this is a cultural problem America has....it has NOTHING to do with religion.

    Ironically enough, more liberals (who account for the greatest number of non-religious) are more in favor of strict gun prevention laws.....including myself.....although admittedly, I am seeing the light and I realize that no amount of laws will actually do anything until we change our "culture of guns".

    Divorce and suicides.....I don't have to get into that, as I'm sure you should know that being non-religious has nothing to do with moral dilemmas.


    So, I guess you ARE trying to make a case for a more non-religious country leads to problems?

    If so, I am very disappointed in such a claim.

    It is baseless, and easily refutable.

    Europe as a whole is a very non-violent continent, with high educational standings, high life expectancy, very good health care, low gun crime, low rape crime.....and yet they are MUCH more non-religious and atheistic than the U.S:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...rometer_2010-1

    ^Focus on the poll by "Eurobarometor"

    40% Atheists in France

    34% Atheists in Sweden

    27% Atheists in Germany

    25% Atheists in UK

    The "Non-Religious" numbers must be much higher since this is a combination of ANYONE who doesn't practice religion regardless of their belief in god.


    Wick, you don't have an argument here....you own country shows that:

    "...Adams used a recent Canada-U.S. poll to demonstrate the divide. The poll shows 58 per cent of Americans saying that it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person, while only 30 per cent of Canadians agree to this.

    And while 45 per cent of Americans now say they go to church every week, only 20 per cent (down from 85 per cent in the 1950s) of Canadians can say the same thing."

    Source: http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/04/0...-us-canada.htm
    So basically, correlations only matter if they back up your argument. Teen suicide, gun violence and anything else that goes against your preconceived ideas is irrelevant because it goes against your preconceived ideas.

  8. #18


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Beckett (66)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAlex View Post
    How did I ignore it?

    I addressed it....and furthermore, I actually did substantiate my claims.

    I easily showed that religion and morality DO NOT go hand in hand.

    IF it did, then Europe should be the most immoral continent on this planet filled with crime, suicides, and all kinds of horrific things.

    And yet it's NOT.

    Also, I could easily use Japan in the example too.

    They are one of the MOST peaceful nations in this planet....and yet let's look at their numbers concerning religion:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan

    ^Focus on the Pie chart from 2011.

    67%.....let me say that again.....67% of Japanese are Non-Religious!

    Explain, how Japan has lower crime, lower violence, higher life expectancy, higher educational stats, better health care than the U.S???

    You assertion is BASELESS, I have evidence on my side....I'm not ignoring your claims, I'm addressing them.

    You on the other hand have not said anything in regards to your OWN country which is MUCH LESS religious than the U.S and also has less crime, better health care, etc.
    What's Japans suicide rate?

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    So basically, correlations only matter if they back up your argument. Teen suicide, gun violence and anything else that goes against your preconceived ideas is irrelevant because it goes against your preconceived ideas.
    Wick, I don't get what you're saying.

    I'm NOT making a correlation....I'm trying to say that YOUR claim that religion and morality go together is simply wrong.

    And as proof, I'm showing other nations who are much less religious and yet a lot lower crime than the U.S.

    Is religion the problem for crime.....most likely not.

    And conversely, is non-religion the problem for a rise in crime....most likely not.

    The problem lies with cultural problems and the respecting society......kinda like gun violence, we have a "culture of guns"....this has NOTHING to do with morality or religion.

    C'mon man, this is a reasonable conclusion which both of us have agreed to in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wickabee View Post
    What's Japans suicide rate?
    It's pretty high....

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Do you think only non-religious people kill themselves?

    BTW, do you think killing yourself is "immoral".....because I don't.

    I feel that human beings are the masters of their own bodies and as such they can do what they please with it.

    Lastly, there ARE studies as to why suicides are so high in Japan and other Asian countries.....the problem is NOT immorality or religion....it's social pressures:

    http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/16/se...cide-epidemic/
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  10. #20
    Another way to gauge religiosity is to ask how many people identify as atheist or agnostic. Here we find that Japan, at 13.1 percent, has around the same proportion as the U.K. (14.4), Canada (15.3), or the U.S. (12.6). Notable, France, Germany, and Sweden have significantly higher percentages of atheists and agnostics.
    here is an article to look at

    http://aboutjapan.japansociety.org/c...ople_religious
    Jay Shrewsbury
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