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  1. #21


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by JustAlex View Post
    Ha!

    A "Freethinker" is simply someone who who forms opinions on the basis of REASON rather than authority.

    When a christian gives ANY rationality based on their religion, they are not being freethinkers.

    But please.....keep saying I'm on the same level of a christian when forming arguments and opinions.
    Right. Some Christians think for themselves, most listen to preachers.
    Just like some atheists think for themselves but listen to their own wise men and infallible books.
    Patiently waiting for someone to bring back sax solos and keytars non ironically.

  2. #22
    so why didn't you mention secularists rather than atheists?

    religion wants to be allowed to practice religion with separation of church and state, in other words, if they think abortion or contraception is wrong for religious reasons why be forced to provide those services? if they wish to say God, Jesus, Allah, or The Great One, why limit their freedom of speech? or why be against a sign at a school with words that mean nothing on them?

    if atheists were for separation of church and state, then why be for forcing religions to do they they are against? why are we after the polygamists who more often than not are religious, both Christian and Muslim. if atheists did not believe in god, why would the belief in god bother them? more often than not an atheists wants to prove religion to be wrong and throw it out as nonsense. for you to spout anything that has to do with religion is not of logic nor could religious people be logical is proof.

    I have met more religious people who are tolerant than atheists.

    why would a picture, statue, or a sign of a god you don't think exists bothers you? when I go to the Buddhist temple to do zanzen with the Buddhists, I respect their beliefs, bow, chant, and meditate, this does not bother me, them, Buddha, or Jesus and none of us are telling the other they are bad or wrong.
    Jay Shrewsbury
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  3. #23
    Christians are not Free-Thinkers. At one time they were indoctrinated, and were TOLD. Perpetuating what you were told as a child, does not make you a free-thinker, it makes you a sheep or a lemming.

  4. #24
    so we are back to the fact that those who founded and spread Christianity were not children but adults.
    there are plenty of people who were not born into religion but become religious with age and there are plenty of people like you who had some negative experience with religion and now are against it.

    and what did Jesus say that would limit somebody from learning are thinking about anything?
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    so why didn't you mention secularists rather than atheists?
    We share the same goals.

    But, I'll answer your question.

    Because people don't usually talk about secularists, they talk about atheists and their misconceptions about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    religion wants to be allowed to practice religion with separation of church and state,
    I very much wish that were the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    in other words, if they think abortion or contraception is wrong for religious reasons why be forced to provide those services? if they wish to say God, Jesus, Allah, or The Great One, why limit their freedom of speech? or why be against a sign at a school with words that mean nothing on them?
    Their freedom of speech STOPS the second it infringes on the freedom of others.

    What is right for you, is NOT right for others.

    This is so simple.

    If you personally do not like this or that....why do you care if OTHERS do....

    If you are a school nurse for example, and a girl comes in and says she wants contraception, and the school allows it...then you MUST give that girl contraception.

    It is NOT up to you to decide the morality of others, and what your religion says is IRRELEVANT to the needs of this particular person.

    Your right to deny contraception when it is indeed legal to do so.....is an INFRINGEMENT on the rights of this girl.

    And personally I believe that if you can't follow the rules in your job....you deserve to be FIRED.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    if atheists were for separation of church and state, then why be for forcing religions to do they they are against?
    You're not getting it.

    It is NOT us who are forcing others what to do.

    It is Religion imposing their morality down others throats.

    We look at this and say HEY, you can't do that!

    You are infringing on the rights of someone who doesn't believe in your beliefs.


    Here's another example....I personally DETEST cigarettes, I believe that everyone that smokes is doing irreparable damage, and will one day suffer grave consequences.

    Imagine if I get a job as a cashier at Wal-Mart, and a customer wants to buy a pack of cigarettes.

    Well....this is a conundrum....my beliefs are firm when it comes to cigarettes, I don't like them and I think they are very harmful to others...imagine if I tell this customer.

    "I'm sorry, but I can't sell you this pack of cigarettes, because it's against my personal beliefs".

    Does that make any sense?

    This is what you are arguing for.

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    if atheists did not believe in god, why would the belief in god bother them? more often than not an atheists wants to prove religion to be wrong and throw it out as nonsense. for you to spout anything that has to do with religion is not of logic nor could religious people be logical is proof.
    Logic: a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning

    How can I not say that many of the things religion deals with is in fact illogical, when they don't believe in evidence and demonstrable proof but rather faith?

    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    I have met more religious people who are tolerant than atheists.
    Really now?

    Then shrew, do me a favor and answer these three simple questions.

    #1 Do you believe in hell?

    #2 What is the criteria for those that go to hell?

    #3 If I meet the criteria for those that go to hell, do you believe I will go to hell?

    If by the end of these 3 simple questions you believe I am going to hell and you can say that you are tolerant of what I believe, you will have contradicted yourself.
    Last edited by JustAlex; 03-31-2013 at 11:32 PM.
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  6. #26


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    so why didn't you mention secularists rather than atheists?

    religion wants to be allowed to practice religion with separation of church and state, in other words, if they think abortion or contraception is wrong for religious reasons why be forced to provide those services? if they wish to say God, Jesus, Allah, or The Great One, why limit their freedom of speech? or why be against a sign at a school with words that mean nothing on them?

    if atheists were for separation of church and state, then why be for forcing religions to do they they are against? why are we after the polygamists who more often than not are religious, both Christian and Muslim. if atheists did not believe in god, why would the belief in god bother them? more often than not an atheists wants to prove religion to be wrong and throw it out as nonsense. for you to spout anything that has to do with religion is not of logic nor could religious people be logical is proof.

    I have met more religious people who are tolerant than atheists.

    why would a picture, statue, or a sign of a god you don't think exists bothers you? when I go to the Buddhist temple to do zanzen with the Buddhists, I respect their beliefs, bow, chant, and meditate, this does not bother me, them, Buddha, or Jesus and none of us are telling the other they are bad or wrong.
    The contraception insurance bit is easy. Let those churches find good hearted people to do the work for free for the good of their own souls and those of others.

    They'll be staffed in no time, right?
    Patiently waiting for someone to bring back sax solos and keytars non ironically.

  7. #27
    #1 Do you believe in hell?

    #2 What is the criteria for those that go to hell?

    #3 If I meet the criteria for those that go to hell, do you believe I will go to hell?
    so the reason you don't like religion is someone says you will burn in hell? and you don't believe in their god but are offended by their hell? that is amazing to me, I guess I don't get the whole idea religion is based on fear of some kind of punishment or some reward of eternal life, to me they are the effects of them not the goal for me to follow or my reason for belief.

    but to be fair, let me see if I can answer your questions

    #1 = to be honest, it is not at the top of my research, thought, or life goals. I would say that it would seem reasonable, but I would have to research more into what I believe as the truth about hell, which would be the words of Jesus, not Paul and the gang.

    #2 = if it exists I would say there would be a few possibilities, one would to be a bad person, two would be to deny God when you had a chance to accept

    #3 = not my place to say and this is quite interesting. I have had this conversation with my wife a few times about my mentors. My teacher is Joe who is Buddhist and my "big brothers" include two Jews and an Atheist, so do I think these great people will burn in hell? I try not to think about it and know there is a answer to this some where, I have just not searched for it enough. Could it be in the same idea of God in Sikhism? they believe that Allah and Brahma are the same just humans are incapable of understanding or naming God. perhaps, but I don't think this right now. or maybe atheism and there is no hell or god? maybe, but it doesn't add up for me at this point in my life.
    Jay Shrewsbury
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by shrewsbury View Post
    so the reason you don't like religion is someone says you will burn in hell?
    That's not the only reason, the main reason is that they are detrimental to society.

    The point of those three questions is very simple.

    As an atheist I can freely admit that I have NO IDEA if there is a hell, heaven, afterlife, whatever.

    I believe there isn't. (This belief is grounded on the fact that all evidence points that natural life on earth dies and ceases to exists, they don't come back, and there is zero evidence for these "spiritual" places, and for that matter there is zero evidence for a soul.)

    Anyways, that's not the case for most christians.

    Most of them DO believe in Hell.

    And I'm a prime candidate for hell.

    Not based on my deeds or morality.....but based on my "faith"....I have none.

    For the crime of thinking, I will be tortured for a trillions of years....and a trillion after that....and infinity after that....according to many christians.

    But you say they are tolerant of people like me?

    And yet they believe that I will go to hell for not thinking like them?

    There is a contradiction here.


    The sad part, is that many of these people mean well, they DO get sad at the idea that people like me will go to hell, and that's why they try to "Save me" by preaching the "good word".

    Their reasoning is completely flawed.

    In actuality they have no idea what will happen to them once they die, they have no idea what will happen to me, but for them to live their entire lives believing that the MAJORITY of the world is going to hell, is something that doesn't sit right by me.

    Yes, shrew, it does bother me when others look down on me and believe their morality, their actions, and their reasoning is so superior they have the gull to say that not only do they believe I am going to be tortured for eternity.....I deserve it.
    Last edited by JustAlex; 04-01-2013 at 01:46 AM.
    Logic and Reason is all you need.

  9. #29


    Wickabee's Avatar

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    Believing you will go to hell and wanting you to go to hell are to completely different things.
    Patiently waiting for someone to bring back sax solos and keytars non ironically.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JustAlex View Post
    The irony of you using that phrase is that it was popularized from the incident when the Jonestown cultists drank the "koolaid" laced with poison as they all killed themselves.

    It's a phrase meant to imply people that have UNQUESTIONABLE beliefs in something they hold firm.

    But you're using this phrase on a freethinking atheist?

    >That does not compute.
    First, do you really think I was using the term 'koolaid' as your defined definition that you listed?

    Second, considering the guy thinks I'm a Christian just from what I wrote, I could've used a different term, but he probably would've had no idea what I was talking about if I said them because they're regional terms.
    Last edited by gladdyontherise; 04-01-2013 at 08:56 AM.
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