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05-01-2013, 02:31 PM #11
Like our Redemption Cards or not, this is our 34th consecutive Expo. We are here to support the hobby especially this year.
Sending a box of redemption sets to be given away by your distributor is not hobby support in my opinion.
05-02-2013, 09:12 AM #12
05-02-2013, 10:51 AM #13
I think I understand what you're saying, but I will respectfully disagree.
I don't mean to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm not understanding correctly.
You say that the product, on its own, should attract people. I would suggest that it does. Nobody is going to spend money on junk products, just to get Expo redemptions. What they're going to do is buy that product that they like anyway.... but do it @ the Expo (or at least bring it to the Expo) and get a bonus for opening it there. Even bigger bang for your buck. If you were planning to open BTP (as an example) you're getting an extra card for doing it at the show. Is the extra card what is driving people to buy the product? I don't believe so. It's simply driving the timing of their purchase. I have not purchased any BTP yet this year, but will be doing so tonight.... and will have the boxes with me @ the Expo. UD Series 1 is always a popular set at the fall Expo. Those boxes would sell regardless of UD Redemptions (for me, I won't spend time in that line anymore - so I buy the boxes and don't bother with the redemptions).
Then there is your point that Expo redemptions somehow drive down the value of GU cards overall. I think there are two ways to look at this / respond to it.....
I have heard the argument, especially around some higher end products, and specifically as a critisizim of ITG's 1/1 show stamped cards - that they lower the value of the 'regular' issued ones. I don't understand how someone arrives at this conclusion. If a card is limited to 9 copies, or 19, or whatever - creating a new "1/1" version with a show stamp on it..... that does not make the origional version any less rare. It means there are similar cards out there, but they are not the same.
If you are actually talking about the glut of GU cards on the market, and the total saturation that has made values drop.... then I would partially agree with you. The abundance of show stamped GU cards does contribute to the overall saturation of the market, but I would also suggest that this is a very small percentage. Many GU cards now sell for $1-$5, becuase GU cards are so easy to get. I don't think taking away the show stamped cards would make much of a dent, at all, in the overall number of GU cards available. There would still be tens of thousands produced each year, when you total up all the cards from all three manufactures.
I also think the word "ruined" is a matter of perspective. If anyone is in this hobby becuase they think the long term value of their cards is going make a great investment, they are crazy. They need a history lesson.... becuase unless you're talking about true vintage cards (1960s and older) the values of almost everything will drop overtime.
I saw another thread where the poster was questioning why a Patrick Roy Topps RC now only books for $80, and a Lemiuex for $100. The answer is easy. There is nobody who was willing to pay more than that for those cards. Everyone who would have spent $100 on that Roy, they've already got one. I see posters bemoan the fact that Bobby Orr autographs have dropped significantly in value. You can get a cheap one for under $100 now.... and for $150 (or less) you can get a very nice one. Why should this bother anyone? If you have bought a lot of Orr autograph, thinking it'd be a good investment, I can see why it would upset you.... but for the rest of us, this is a good thing. The autographs are more accessible, making it easier to add to our collections. The days of the $40 Gordie Howe autograph are coming. With all three manufacturers using him in products now, I expect the market to become very saturated in the next couple of years.
GU cards have dropped in value becuase every set has them, and they're not very special anymore. Autographs are the same thing. Rookie Cards of all but the absolute best drop within months of their release - becuase too many collectors put a value on what is shiny and new.
Show Stamped cards are such a small portion of the market, a drop in the bucket when compared to overall production numbers. If you think they have a large impact on the value of other cards.... I think you're kidding yourself.
05-02-2013, 11:19 AM #14
It is difficult to be a player collector, ITG is by far the largest expo card manufacturer in recent years. Just check how many Gilmour expo cards forever rivals or superlative included. Forthcoming ITG Ultimate has always contain a lot of Gilmour expo cards, so I'm sorry if I can't get too excited these expos.
Market's do not healthy by doing more and more GU cards. This may be only a small part of this whole problem but, however, it is anyway.
It's just my opinion, I understand that someone gets a bonus for those that do not need to collect them.
05-02-2013, 11:24 AM #15
The relative number of unique expo cards vs. the fact that the NHL allows two companies to produce 12 sets a year (for 24 total) with each set having a high number of basic GU, autos, and autos/GU (and now even shields) is the reason the market is "oversaturated" with GU and autos. Some free giveaways for people buying a box over product here and there is a relative small influence on the market, and a unique extra for some player collectors.PC: ITG/The Cup/Masterpieces Theoren Fleury, Colin Wilson YGs, 07/08 Heroes and Prospects +3-color GUJ pieces, 06/07 H+P Gloves B. Comeau, K Ramo RCs, Artifacts Team Canada /299
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05-02-2013, 01:08 PM #16
05-02-2013, 01:11 PM #17
Yeah, I hear you.
Weather you're talking about ITG, UD, or Panini - More expo cards mean more cards. Period.
Truthfully though, I think all of us player collectors know that we will never really get to "100%" if you include 1/1s. Gilmour would have a ton more cards than Ranford does (both pack pulled stuff and Show Stamped) and I know there is NO WAY I'm ever going to do it for Ranford. I can't even complete all the non 1/1s (talking pack pulled stuff) becuase there have been many very limited cards made over the years, and they're simply impossible to track down. It's not that I necessarily lose auctions / can't get them for a price I want - I can't find copies of the cards I'm still missing.
The show stamped, as far as I'm concerned, I treat them like any other 1/1 card out there. Would I like them? Yes. Will I worry about them? No. If they show up online, and can be had for a reasonable price.... I will buy them. Missed out on a Ranford 1/1 (Gold Patch) from Motown Madness a few weeks ago..... becuase it went for a higher price than I was willing to pay. Didn't lose a minute of sleep over it.
I guess, to me, it's a simple thing. If you don't like the cards, don't buy them. Don't let this notion of "100%" dictate how you build your collection.
I totally agree with you that the abundance of GU cards on the market has driven the prices down, but all companies could stop making GU cards for shows tomorrow, and that wouldn't change. Only a drastic reduction in the number produced every year would do that.... and even then, I think it would take several years before you'd see much of an effect.
05-02-2013, 01:35 PM #18
Ranfordfan, I respect your opinion, always.
However, I throw one name out. Cujo-collector, Connie. She was actually same kind of person like I am, I mean as a collector-person, as a person he is much nicer than I am
She wants everything out there, or wanted, because she had to stop because the companies made too much cards, very limited GU cards.
05-02-2013, 02:48 PM #19
I try to be nothing but respectful of others too :)
I didn't realize that Connie decided to stop, she had an amazing collection.
Just like you, I try for everything. I do try. The number of very short printed cards frustrates me too. I just don't look at it as a bad thing.
I collect a player that would best be described as a "semi-star". He hasn't played a game since the 1999-00 season. I am just happy that they continue to make cards of him. If I can't get all the 1/1s out there, all the show stamped cards, or that last parallel from the 1998 season..... I'm not going to let that take away from my enjoyment of collecting, and the thrill of the chase.
Of course all people are different, and we all have different way of collecting, all of us have different opinions on what we want to collect. When I read about player collectors who don't collect base or inserts, does that mean their collection isn't as good as mine or yours? I don't think it does, it just means it is different. They're collecting what they like.
I just think people who don't like show stamped cards, they shouldn't bother collecting them. Don't let someone else's opinion of 100% dicate what you collect. Try to get 100% of the cards you want to own.
05-02-2013, 03:41 PM #20
Do you not think UD ruined the hobby back in the late 80's and early 90's with the other companies by producing too much? I have no problem with how you feel that is your opinion and you should share it. I however do not think you can fault Itg as a company for something that your beloved UD did in the past (producing too many cards and ruining the hobby for some).
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