Teaser - Panini Opens up Two Boxes of National Treasures

[Bimola]

The ignorance of some of the things you guys say can really be astounding at times.

The subject of sticker autos has come up before in discussions about the product and as Chris noted above and at the time, these are considered bonus hits and not one of your regular 8 cards as advertised on the box. It's not like other products that have been made that have incorporated "bonus" autos from previous year's releases that actually do count as one of your box-average hits.

Everybody who has been remotely paying attention for the past several months knows that this is Panini's farewell product to the hockey market. There is nothing left after this. What do you people expect them to do with all the Selanne and other marquee player autographs that they've secured and paid good money for? Just let them sit in a warehouse, unused? Then I'm sure some of you would find ways to complain about that. Same goes for the notion of buying rookie game-worn jerseys--as we know from FrozenInferno's research about the jersey used in Prime, a game-used Nathan MacKinnon rookie jersey costs over $4,000 to acquire. You think that the budget is there to buy a dozen top-end player's jerseys for use in only one or two products? What do Panini do with the rest of their investment? Try to be serious.

It's amazingly galling the lack of thought that gets put into some posts. Using words like "inexcusable" "worthless" and so forth is so vastly out of line that it's not even funny. It's one thing to have an opinion, but when it is so obviously uninformed and spewed only for the sake of being negative because it doesn't meet your lofty standards, maybe sometimes it's best to just say nothing.

Well put.

I'm scratching my head as negative comment after negative comment refers to re-sale value of each of the cards. Is no one breaking NT just because they can't wait to own the cards inside? Seems the hobby has taken a turn in the wrong direction if the only goal is to quickly make back the pack/ case cost with the hope of profit. That is not collecting - it is speculating and there are a slew of other investments I could steer you towards that should perform way better (and are more secure) than hockey card re-sales.

If you are just in it for the money, then please do an accurate (and silent) evauation of the investment and decide if it's a reasonable risk vs return scenario. There's no need to publically criticize whatever shortcomings you deem to be unacceptable that may hamper your potential return.

[RGM81]

I've never really gotten the hate for "plain white swatches" -- patches, yes, especially in a high-end product, that I understand -- every single team in the NHL has a home jersey and a road jersey. Depending on agreements that teams have with the companies as to how jerseys are distributed, an away jersey may be the only thing that UD/Panini can get their hands on for use in cards. Would the Subban from the preview break look a little bit cooler if it was the more recognizable and traditional home red jersey? Sure. But it's still a jersey that he wore in more than a few games and probably loaded a few bombs into the back of the net. It's not any more or less game-used just because it's a road jersey. If the card company has a road jersey, you're going to see a lot of white. That's just a simple fact of it. And when it comes to Montreal jerseys, which are sold through their website, the home ones always sell very quickly for the star players.

[Fred Bear]

I've never really gotten the hate for "plain white swatches" -- patches, yes, especially in a high-end product, that I understand -- every single team in the NHL has a home jersey and a road jersey. Depending on agreements that teams have with the companies as to how jerseys are distributed, an away jersey may be the only thing that UD/Panini can get their hands on for use in cards. Would the Subban from the preview break look a little bit cooler if it was the more recognizable and traditional home red jersey? Sure. But it's still a jersey that he wore in more than a few games and probably loaded a few bombs into the back of the net. It's not any more or less game-used just because it's a road jersey. If the card company has a road jersey, you're going to see a lot of white. That's just a simple fact of it. And when it comes to Montreal jerseys, which are sold through their website, the home ones always sell very quickly for the star players.

That's just it, though... Supply and demand. Every team has a road and a home jersey. If a company gets a couple and creates a pile of cards, how do you really distinguish them? I've never really been a 'hoarder', so one is enough for me. I have no need to own 600 different game-used Yzerman cards in plain white or plain red. I have 1 two-color (red-white) from Motown Madness that I absolutely love (it's a red-version /140, too), though... So, if that was an Yzerman, plain white jersey /50 in the NT break - it would be 'meh' for me. But, truth is, it wouldn't be something that interested me out of Score, either, so out of a $400/pack product, for me, it would be a definite disappointment.

Until the game-used jersey becomes a 'hit' again, there will always be a stigma with a 'plain, white swatch'.

[KingKuba]

Well put.

I'm scratching my head as negative comment after negative comment refers to re-sale value of each of the cards. Is no one breaking NT just because they can't wait to own the cards inside? Seems the hobby has taken a turn in the wrong direction if the only goal is to quickly make back the pack/ case cost with the hope of profit. That is not collecting - it is speculating and there are a slew of other investments I could steer you towards that should perform way better (and are more secure) than hockey card re-sales.

If you are just in it for the money, then please do an accurate (and silent) evauation of the investment and decide if it's a reasonable risk vs return scenario. There's no need to publically criticize whatever shortcomings you deem to be unacceptable that may hamper your potential return.

No one breaking is keeping cards.
Especially not the "investors" pouncing on this.
Especially not the US people who collect other sports.

People know, sitting on these cards is just burning money and I don't think burning money in enjoyable for most.
There's too much money involved for it to be just "fun".

When people spend more on 4 "packs" of cards than their mortgage they'll will definitely complain about crappy cards and value.

In this world, the only thing that matters is money. Fact.

People will get killed on the secondary market because hockey is a fickle crowd and just lower demand than other sports.
Just look how cheap autos sell of most legands/stars.

There's a lot of interesting cards here but a lot of fillers too which bring production too high.

So few skate cards, sticks, etc.

I think prime looks more fun still. ..
Immaculate vs NT in basketball.

I think panini just needed more time. Sucks they had to rush and 14-15 will be boring without them.

[RGM81]

That's just it, though... Supply and demand. Every team has a road and a home jersey. If a company gets a couple and creates a pile of cards, how do you really distinguish them? I've never really been a 'hoarder', so one is enough for me. I have no need to own 600 different game-used Yzerman cards in plain white or plain red. I have 1 two-color (red-white) from Motown Madness that I absolutely love (it's a red-version /140, too), though... So, if that was an Yzerman, plain white jersey /50 in the NT break - it would be 'meh' for me. But, truth is, it wouldn't be something that interested me out of Score, either, so out of a $400/pack product, for me, it would be a definite disappointment.

Until the game-used jersey becomes a 'hit' again, there will always be a stigma with a 'plain, white swatch'.

And that is the real battle that UD is going to be facing going forward. Every UD1/2 box comes with two of them. The run of tins I've been on this year has had 1 per tin. And that's just a single product...multiply that across the spectrum of the 18-22 releases they'll be doing. People are going to complain regardless--if they remove the GU's, well then they're devaluing the product; if they keep them, well then it's just continued watering down of the memorabilia market. Can't win either way.

The key for them I think is to make them as interesting as possible -- whether that means procuring more "special" jerseys or linking them to an event or making the pieces larger...I don't know. But so many sets have jerseys for the sake of jerseys. Even if Upper Deck DOES have a Carey Price Heritage Classic jersey (as speculated by me elsewhere) they've done NOTHING to promote that fact, which strikes me as very very odd.

[KingKuba]

Next will have teeth/hair/beards/etc game used.....

[13stepper]

National Treasures always has sticker autos, at least it does in the other sports. I'm not surprised to see it in hockey.

[scissorneck]

No one breaking is keeping cards.
Especially not the "investors" pouncing on this.
Especially not the US people who collect other sports.

People know, sitting on these cards is just burning money and I don't think burning money in enjoyable for most.
There's too much money involved for it to be just "fun".

When people spend more on 4 "packs" of cards than their mortgage they'll will definitely complain about crappy cards and value.

In this world, the only thing that matters is money. Fact.

People will get killed on the secondary market because hockey is a fickle crowd and just lower demand than other sports.
Just look how cheap autos sell of most legands/stars.

There's a lot of interesting cards here but a lot of fillers too which bring production too high.

So few skate cards, sticks, etc.

I think prime looks more fun still. ..
Immaculate vs NT in basketball.

I think panini just needed more time. Sucks they had to rush and 14-15 will be boring without them.

Not sure about anyone else but I know with my 6 cases coming in I will be keeping most of the cards cause I am a COLLECTOR and don't need to sell off everything I bust to make my credit card payments. So few actual collectors nowadays it is sad.

[jubei777]

Is 3,400 cases made too much for this product? Based on all the variation of RAP's and knowing 1 per box, that's what the numbers break down to.

i'm also curious why Alex Killorn only has base and his plates. did he lose the rest of them when they were mailed to him?

[Gallinator]

I respect everyone's opinion. Even those that call out the "ignorant" people.
I understand that they have to use up their inventory of stickers as this is the last product.
When I first watched case breaks of contenders, I thought, yeah, no big deal, the RC's are on card, I'm happy with that. Whoa, looks like there's an 8 way auto in every box, that's ok, because they have to use up their inventory. I totally understood. My $400 is gonna go to The Cup, not a sticker in sight. Contenders is already saturated with autographs, you're telling me you couldn't use it all up with that product?
Everyone has their opinion about sticker autos, I respect the people that like them as much as those like me who dislike them. Please respect your fellow collectors.

I'm not going to try and pick at the scab here, but calling them 'bonus' hits is marketing speak. They are pretty clearly marked as being from 'National Treasures' on the cards and if every pack has a 'bonus', then isn't it just part of what you are getting... I have no problem with Panini using them to burn inventory, but let's call a spade a spade. Additionally, a guy dropping $400 on a pack, shouldn't need a 'bonus' to drive a product's value... [I do agree that criticism could be done more tactfully in some cases]

In my opinion, the cards do look beautiful and a couple of the sub-sets are really appealing. Do they justify the price tag? Not for me. Too much of a nice thing really dilutes it. Panini's preview really solidifies that for me. My personal opinion is that sticker autos and white swatches do not belong in $400/pack products - even as bonuses. I'm not saying they don't have value, I just don't care to be the guy ripping them for that price point. I'm certainly interested in seeing some of the Wings cards that get pulled and, if they are something that catches my eye, I may pick up some.

As for what Panini could have done... I've heard the 'excuse' before that white swatches 'have' to be used sometimes and I understand that. All manufacturers should try a little harder to create unique, low-numbered cards. I have a Dominion Brodeur auto patch /25 which is all white. Couldn't have been used in Certified (at the time)? There were nicer swatches on higher-numbered cards (or similar) in other lower-end products is my point. I know they 'needed' to use the swatch, but shouldn't discretion be used on where? I think that businesses do make those decisions knowing the fallout, though, which means, to me, that it should be alright for someone to be critical when they see a large plain white swatch in an uber-high-end product.

Good luck to those that are breaking. I can't wait to see some of the full case breaks this weekend...

I agree completely with these statements. NT should be a showcase of the best of the best, not a catch-all, use-em-or-lose-em product. There was enough lead time where Panini knew they weren't coming back next year to use those "bonus" materials in at least Prime and Contenders if not even some of the releases prior. Collectors can (and should) appreciate the sentiment of including bonus materials - e.g., THANK YOU for the thought - but can and should voice their displeasure at the execution - e.g., I would have preferred putting all "bonus" materials in prior releases, leaving NT to stand on its own merits.

Here's the root of the problem: Sticker autos and white jersey swatches REALLY suck. I've been collecting hockey since 1984. I've seen all the highs and lows since that time. I've marveled at the innovations, commiserated with my fellow collectors over speculative boom and bust cycles, seen card companies come and go (and I've appreciated the efforts of ALL of them). The first time we saw a piece of jersey embedded in a card, it was so shockingly cool that we didn't care what color it was. It was even cool when a multi-color jersey card would fetch a premium over a single-color swatch. However, as the years passed and we saw jersey card after jersey card ad nauseum, they stopped being special per se and needed more to give a thrill. To avoid the disdain of the average collector, white swatches should be banned. Just end it.

As far as sticker autos go - well, they've always been disappointing to many, many collectors. Somewhere along the way it became the standard to have a player sign a sheet of stickers instead of the actual cards. It's cheaper, more convenient, less susceptible to loss, the cards don't have to be produced yet, etc., BUT the bottom line is the player never touched the card you have, which makes it go from a special collectible to just another sticker auto card, even if it is someone tough like Selanne.

Why these things matter should be self-evident: After years of seeing the white swatches, hard-to-sell (or even trade) jersey and auto cards (and not for profit, just to be able to get $$ to buy PC cards!) and lack of break value from box after box (not a commentary on NT, here, just the hobby in general), collectors will LEAVE THE HOBBY, which hurts us all. That's why all should feel free to comment, without criticism. We all know there are those who will complain about a free lunch, let alone a $400 pack of cards, and there will be some complaining who have no intention or thought of ever buying the product. So be it, even if the commentary is inelegant at times. I'd rather wade through the chaff and read some valid points of concern versus scrolling through a screen full of platitudes.

I hope everyone enjoys their NT breaks - I'm in 5 different group breaks and hope to pull some beauties!