Far Right Christian Pastor in EPIC gay rant...

[Star_Cards]

Well since Jay didn't want to respond to it. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with the theory that people are BORN with differing sexual attractions & identities?

Anyone?

It's confusing to me as well why people are so hung up on sexuality and defining it. Even on the straight side of things there is a vast spectrum of things that individuals find attractive that the next person has zero interest in or could even be turned off by.

[shrewsbury]

habs, I did respond

And again, what is the importance of it NOT being genetic?
being born gay is an opinion, not a fact empirical fact. the reason you are gay should be of no concern, the right to chose your spouse should be. so to me it is a mute point to argue wither way. I would have no problem saying for some it is and for some it is not.

[shrewsbury]

star cards, a lot of things are confusing for you.

it cannot be about right or wrong, it has to be about the legalities of it.

gays want the same marriage rights as straights. the reason should not be because they are born that way so it is normal.
the argument must be that all are equal under the law.

much less now you are taking someone's personal ideas as facts in one argument but saying they do not count in another. if you allow personal opinions to matter in law, then which people are we going to go with? I would bet most will take what suits them better and all logic is out the door.

you cannot have a legit argument for gay marriage based on gays may be born gay. much like you cannot have a legit argument against gay marriage because the Koran says being gay is bad. but if you are going to go with one, you have to go with all, and it just doesn't work.

also, by being born gay, could it not be argued there is a genetic defect? then we are back to the crazy therapists trying to "ungay" people and someone looking for a cure to a gay illness.

this spin on it would happen the moment gay genes are found.

equal rights is what counts, consenting, well minded adults have the right to choose what consenting, well minded adult they want to be with.

if we cannot bring in religious opinions as a good argument against it, then we cannot bring in an opinion to fight for it.

marriage is a legal right, Clinton defined it as male and female, it needs to be redefined.

this is not that hard guys.

[habsheaven]

habs, I did respond

No you didn't. Take a look at post #170.

"Is an opinion, not a fact" explains nothing. Yes, it is an opinion. Where are the holes in that opinion?

[habsheaven]

star cards, a lot of things are confusing for you.

it cannot be about right or wrong, it has to be about the legalities of it.

gays want the same marriage rights as straights. the reason should not be because they are born that way so it is normal.
the argument must be that all are equal under the law.

much less now you are taking someone's personal ideas as facts in one argument but saying they do not count in another. if you allow personal opinions to matter in law, then which people are we going to go with? I would bet most will take what suits them better and all logic is out the door.

you cannot have a legit argument for gay marriage based on gays may be born gay. much like you cannot have a legit argument against gay marriage because the Koran says being gay is bad. but if you are going to go with one, you have to go with all, and it just doesn't work.

also, by being born gay, could it not be argued there is a genetic defect? then we are back to the crazy therapists trying to "ungay" people and someone looking for a cure to a gay illness.

this spin on it would happen the moment gay genes are found.

equal rights is what counts, consenting, well minded adults have the right to choose what consenting, well minded adult they want to be with.

if we cannot bring in religious opinions as a good argument against it, then we cannot bring in an opinion to fight for it.

marriage is a legal right, Clinton defined it as male and female, it needs to be redefined.

this is not that hard guys.

I missed it. Who is claiming "WHY people are gay" is a valid reason FOR gay marriage? I totally missed anyone arguing that point.

[shrewsbury]

a few of you are arguing whole heartedly that gays are born gay because that is how they feel.

well, a lot of Muslims feels gays are against God and should convert or die.
a lot of christians say homosexuality is a sin, which makes it "illegal" under God.
some think gays are just sick and need help.

I refuse to allow the 3 opinions listed above to be part of how society should work as a whole, so I must also not allow other personal opinions to influence either. no matter how much I might agree with it or not, it is not what the law is about.

my argument is simple, it should not and does not matter if it is a birthright or a choice. The facts are that our personal beliefs cannot interpret the law for society, only for ourselves.

you have no proof of the claim, yet give others a hard time when it comes to their personal beliefs. and before you start with the "we know ourselves, not god" junk, there are too many people doing bad stuff that they think they have the right to do, based on how they feel and personal experiences.

you can side with who you want, but an opinion is not a fact.

[QUOTE]Where are the holes in that opinion?[/QUOTE

no science to back it up, no facts to back it up, nothing to back it up but opinions.
If I based my beliefs off of opinions, then I better go join Isis, they have plenty of opinions they feel are very valid. In fact, how much more valid can something be than your Creator telling you it is the truth?

[Star_Cards]

star cards, a lot of things are confusing for you.

it cannot be about right or wrong, it has to be about the legalities of it.

gays want the same marriage rights as straights. the reason should not be because they are born that way so it is normal.
the argument must be that all are equal under the law.

much less now you are taking someone's personal ideas as facts in one argument but saying they do not count in another. if you allow personal opinions to matter in law, then which people are we going to go with? I would bet most will take what suits them better and all logic is out the door.

you cannot have a legit argument for gay marriage based on gays may be born gay. much like you cannot have a legit argument against gay marriage because the Koran says being gay is bad. but if you are going to go with one, you have to go with all, and it just doesn't work.

also, by being born gay, could it not be argued there is a genetic defect? then we are back to the crazy therapists trying to "ungay" people and someone looking for a cure to a gay illness.

this spin on it would happen the moment gay genes are found.

equal rights is what counts, consenting, well minded adults have the right to choose what consenting, well minded adult they want to be with.

if we cannot bring in religious opinions as a good argument against it, then we cannot bring in an opinion to fight for it.

marriage is a legal right, Clinton defined it as male and female, it needs to be redefined.

this is not that hard guys.

I actually don't think the origins of one's sexuality has any bearing in if it should be legal for gays to marry. It doesn't matter if it's a choice or if it's not? There are many straight couples who are married for reasons other than being sexually attracted to each other. Religious opinions have zero bearing on what our society should allow and what they should not. My opinion on whether or not homosexuality is a choice or not has zero bearing as well. If one group of consenting adults have the right to marry and benefit then every one should.

[habsheaven]

[QUOTE=shrewsbury;13738646]a few of you are arguing whole heartedly that gays are born gay because that is how they feel.

well, a lot of Muslims feels gays are against God and should convert or die.
a lot of christians say homosexuality is a sin, which makes it "illegal" under God.
some think gays are just sick and need help.

I refuse to allow the 3 opinions listed above to be part of how society should work as a whole, so I must also not allow other personal opinions to influence either. no matter how much I might agree with it or not, it is not what the law is about.

my argument is simple, it should not and does not matter if it is a birthright or a choice. The facts are that our personal beliefs cannot interpret the law for society, only for ourselves.

you have no proof of the claim, yet give others a hard time when it comes to their personal beliefs. and before you start with the "we know ourselves, not god" junk, there are too many people doing bad stuff that they think they have the right to do, based on how they feel and personal experiences.

you can side with who you want, but an opinion is not a fact.

Where are the holes in that opinion?[/QUOTE

no science to back it up, no facts to back it up, nothing to back it up but opinions.
If I based my beliefs off of opinions, then I better go join Isis, they have plenty of opinions they feel are very valid. In fact, how much more valid can something be than your Creator telling you it is the truth?

Jay, gays are talking about THEMSELVES. Muslims and Christians are talking about OTHERS. Huge difference in the opinions. It amazes me that YOU cannot make that distinction. Or, YOU don't WANT to make that distinction.

And no one, OTHER THAN YOU is linking the BORN/CHOICE debate to the laws of the land. You continue to do it in an attempt to skirt the born/choice debate altogether. It's obvious that is your intention.

The back up for the opinion can be found in the testimonials of the people directly involved in the debate. The parallels can be seen throughout everyone's lives. No one argues that people choose left-handed over right? Yet on the issue of sexuality, all of a sudden we were all created the same. That doesn't strike you as strange? You cannot compare their beliefs in their OWN selves to a Christian with a belief in God. And what do you base your beliefs on? You yourself keep saying that the Bible was written by MEN. Yet, on this point YOUR CREATOR told you? When did he tell YOU anything?

[shrewsbury]

how I am dodging the debate?

you say it is a fact that people are born gay because they feel that way, that is hardly fact based and is just pure opinion. I know gays who say it is a choice, some say they were born that way.
your proof is someones opinion, which most of them are far from experts on the brain, nature vs nurture, or psychology.

Muslims are talking about their beliefs about gays, theirs, not the gays or yours, theirs.

now, I am not in agreement with the muslims nor hater christians nor any gay hater, I just say, if their opinion does not count, how does someone elses?
gays opinion about being born gay is offending Muslims and Christians and other gay haters. it distorts facts, much like religion, by presenting an opinion as a truth.

the funny thing is I am "debating" the wrong side of this argument just to show that people and their opinions differ, but to say one groups opinions are more valid, is as wrong as some of the opinions are.

you are opening up a can of worms by acting like an opinion is a fact because it is personal, no, it is a personal opinion. it should be respected, but not made into a fact nor a basis for an argument.

I have to go to a meeting, then I have to go take a midterm.

I do appreciate everyone keeping things pretty decent, it could have gotten ugly.

[andrewhoya]

I went back and looked at a few as well. Funny enough the examples you posted were by another member. The tone of the ones that I saw were all quite easily read as being an insult. It still baffles me that someone would argue they were used not in an insulting way. It's confusing to me.

I am 100% with you. I challenge someone to find a post in this section when it WASN'T used as an insult.

The funniest thing I find is that he himself used it as an insult towards Alex, yet claims it isn't an insulting thing to say. I feel like I'm on an episode on ESPN's "C'Mon Man!".