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  1. #221







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    You do not have a "right" to not be offended. A person has a "right" to not be discriminated against. Refusing service IS discrimination.

    Practicing religion and having religious beliefs is a right. Being forced to provide a service that contradicts your beliefs when there are others who can provide that service that have no religious convictions about providing the service is wrong.

    If it is only about rights for you then...keeping and bearing arms is my right under the Constitution. Do you support my right to carry a gun to work (I am a school teacher) since the students and parents of students have no protected right to not have a teacher carry a gun to school? You see, sometimes it isn't about "rights", it is about what is right.
    Last edited by duane1969; 04-02-2015 at 09:08 AM.

  2. #222




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    Damnit. Now I want cake

  3. #223




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    Practicing religion and having religious beliefs is a right. Being forced to provide a service that contradicts your beliefs when there are others who can provide that service that have no religious convictions about providing the service is wrong.

    If it is only about rights for you then...keeping and bearing arms is my right under the Constitution. Do you support my right to carry a gun to work (I am a school teacher) since the students and parents of students have no protected right to not have a teacher carry a gun to school? You see, sometimes it isn't about "rights", it is about what is right.

    Yes, practising and holding religious beliefs is a right that has no affect on others. Denying service that you regularly offer in your course of business DOES have an affect on others. Also, you can't claim "that others can provide" because that simply is not the case in every instance. So you may consider it wrong, the law doesn't.

    It isn't ONLY about rights to me. It's more about INFRINGING on rights to me. Yes, keeping and bearing arms is your right. Sounds like you are implying that that right is unlimited in scope?
    Last edited by habsheaven; 04-02-2015 at 09:42 AM.

  4. #224




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    What is written or "painted" on the cake is irrelevant. The point is that the cake maker's "feelings" are relevant. The idea that a cake maker should be forced to make a cake regardless of what is on it or if it is offensive to their religious or personal beliefs is wrong.

    If it is discrimination to refuse to do a gay wedding cake then where does this end? What next? Minister's being forced to do gay marriages in their church because refusing to is discrimination too? My primary reason for opposing gay "marriage" was because I saw it leading to gay rights trumping religious rights and that is EXACTLY where this has gone.



    the only rights you have in regards to your religion is the freesom to practice it. THATS ALL... Why do you feel that you are entitled to more rights than someone else?
    Last edited by bryanATX; 04-02-2015 at 09:43 AM. Reason: auto type spelling

  5. #225




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    My primary reason for opposing gay "marriage" was because I saw it leading to gay rights trumping religious rights and that is EXACTLY where this has gone.

    how is the rights for gays to marry trumping religious rights? you can marry in your church without it being legal, or you can do it the legal way and get a license. all adults who are sound in mind should have this option.

    you are refusing service based on their sexuality. so should gays in general not be allowed to go to s diner, grocery store, or a public bathroom?

    some are claiming they are ok with gays just not gay marriage, show me where in your religious texts it says gay marriage is wrong, you can't. some texts saying being gay is a sin, but does not specify marriage. so if you are going to go on a religious basis and your religion says gays are sinners, how can you serve them at all? why pick on just their right to marry?

    Practicing religion and having religious beliefs is a right.

    correct. just like practicing racism and having racist beliefs are a right, but when, in either case, you infringe on the rights of others, you are breaking the law.

  6. #226




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    sanfran,
    I appreciate your ability to be questioned and strongly disagreed with and not "lose your cool".

    No prob, I am in the same boat as you. We both have strong convictions it seems and have differences of opinions. I don't know your heart and you don't know mine, so it's good to have tough discussions. I don't really take offense to anything as long as its civil.

  7. #227




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    you are serving your community, so you must serve everyone in that community, not who you choose to based on your "beliefs".

    so should we allow all Muslim owned/ran businesses to kill infidels?
    should a Hindu working at mickey d's be allowed not to serve beef product?
    should a buddhist ran business ask you if you ever killed an insect and if you did refuse you service?
    should a Muslim doctor allow you to die because you are not muslim?




    made my day!

    How about this question, should we force a muslim caterer to serve pork?

    EDIT- someone beat me to it lol.
    Last edited by sanfran22; 04-02-2015 at 11:36 AM.

  8. #228




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    That's a silly analogy. Why would a Muslim or Jew business owner have ham on their menu, if they have no intention of serving it?

    Not true. I don't have a "menu" of designs for my clothing. It's custom. So should it be anything goes? Should I have no right to decline any job? I would assume a caterer would be the same way. Custom choices for your event.
    Last edited by sanfran22; 04-02-2015 at 11:36 AM.

  9. #229




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    Again, discrimination is not serving an individual for whatever reason. It is not declining to do a specific job. Job does not = individual. How is this not realized?
    Gay couple comes in to buy a cake. They want it to say "Support Gay marriage". Baker says they do not feel comfortable with that job and decline. Not discrimination.
    Same gay couple comes in to buy a cake for an event. Business decides they wont do anything for them because they are gay. That can be considered discrimination.
    Does anyone not see the difference in the two?

  10. #230




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    @sanfran - out of sheer curiosity, I have a couple questions.

    1 - Where do you draw the line?
    For example -
    * One man comes in to buy t-shirts for a bachelor party/wedding/whatever and wants them to read "Congrats Adam & Steve!"
    * Same example but the t-shirts read "Congrats Kelly & Steve!"

    2 - Is this issue specific to homosexuals? Is it homosexual marriage that is the issue?
    * Same examples above but not for anything to do with a wedding ceremony.

    3 - Is there a continuation of this perceived moral difference?
    * Would you refuse to make t-shirts supporting a politician who supports LGBT rights?
    * Would you refuse to make t-shirts supporting a politician who you and/or your religion does not support?
    * Would you refuse to work with a company who is supportive of the LGBT community on this issue? (I am assuming that you are from/around San Francisco - if not you can sub in other company here) - Marc Benioff the CEO of Salesforce which is located in your area has been very vocal about his opposition of this bill. Would you refuse to make Salesforce t-shirts for his business based upon this opposition?

    I am not asking these questions to antagonize, I am truly curious as to how far this would effect you and your business practices. Surely there are issues that are important to Christians like yourself. We continue to get the LGBT side of things pounded into our skulls but what are other issues (outside of the obvious KKK type references from previous) that would come up in day to day operations that you would shy away from. Specifically, what are topics that you know your competitors would handle that you would reject?

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