The Legacy Of LeBron

[jmintz]

No it is. Outside of the void that the east had when the west pounded them for over a decade before Lebron came along the east is and was super weak this year. It has nothing to do with talent or skill level and more of that there are no teams to challenge anybody outside of the ones in the west. If Lebron James was drafted by the Nuggets instead of the Cavs and he played his whole career in the west would he have more or less titles right about now? It would be way less. He basically gets a free pass to the NBA Finals every year and I'll give him credit for staying healthy and winning in the Finals but off the top of my head I can't think of any eastern conference teams he has beaten that would have been NBA Finals winners. I guess maybe it being so lopsided and stacked in the west would be a more accurate way of putting it.

I can't argue that the WC was better than the East this year (and has been forever), but the gap was significantly less this year than in years past. They were only 14 games over .500 in head-to-head matchups this year. Compared to 2013-14, when the west was 118 games over .500, it was much more competitive.

We can't play the what-if game here, but since you're mentioning the Nuggets, if he had been drafted by them, we're basically swapping him for Carmelo. Lebron would have had Marcus Camby in his prime defending the rim, he'd have had a second-year Nene averaging about 12 and 6 at the 4, Andre Miller doing a decent job at point, and Voshon Lenard keeping teams honest. That team is better than the team he had in the Finals in 2007.

The 2003-04 Nuggets made the playoffs, so I think it's not crazy to think that he still would have won titles in the West since we can all agree Carmelo is not Lebron. More? I don't know. Less? Can't say that either. There's no way to tell what would have happened.

[ajcorleone]

Yet he can't even dominate this era. I mean he has 3 titles in 12/13 seasons against some of the weakest competition of all time. And that's after getting free agents to join him and the Cavs winning 100 #1 picks. How many times would he make the finals in the east having to face Jordan/Pippen, the bad boy Pistons, and Bird/Celtics year in and year out in the east?

Tim Duncan has won 5 rings against the same basic talent and same basic era as Lebron so if Lebron is dominating what is Timmy doing? And that's basically while running parallel to the 5 titles Kobe has since Duncan entered the league a year after so their careers basically overlapped.

Bold says it all

[ajcorleone]

Bottom line I think is 3 titles very impressive but not in conversation of top 5. If you want to eliminate old timers still not better than
Kareem
Kobe
Jordan'
Bird
Shaq

And please don't be foolish and say Kareem was bigger than everybody. This says it best

[jmintz]

Bottom line I think is 3 titles very impressive but not in conversation of top 5. If you want to eliminate old timers still not better than
Kareem
Kobe
Jordan'
Bird
Shaq

First, if you're saying it takes more than three titles to be top five than let's go ahead and remove Bird also, because he only won three titles.

We can't just ignore the fact that all of those guys played with NBA top 50-calibre guys. The only title team EVER to win it all without more than one hall-of-fame level player was the Pistons team that won it with Chauncey and Ben Wallace. The list more or less starts and ends there...at least in the last 30-40 years.

Bird played with McHale, Robert Parish, Bill Walton as a 6th man, Tiny Archibald, Dennis Johnson, and Danny Ainge. He had amazing supporting casts loaded with Hall of Famers.
Do you not think that had LeBron (instead of Kobe) played with Shaq he wouldn't have run off at LEAST 6 titles?
Ignoring the fact that Pippen and Lebron really play the same role, do we not think that had Lebron played with Pippen, Rodman, and Kukoc he couldn't have won 5 or 6?

Lebron's first two titles came with at least one player that will be in the Hall - Wade for sure, and I think Bosh has a good argument. His title this year came with guys that I would say are, to date, borderline. I can't say for sure that Love will be, and Kyrie is too young to make that call.

The Finals that he lost were to a 2010 Mavs team with two Hall of Famers (Dirk and Kidd), the band of misfits he took to the finals against the 2007 Spurs (with two Hall of Famers in Duncan and Parker), losing to the Spurs (again, Duncan and Parker) and in Cleveland last year when the team he had in the Finals was a joke.

Again, I can't stress the point that I'm not some LeBron junkie. I was born in the 70s and grew up watching basketball in the 80s. But, in general, when he's had a decent supporting cast he has either won the title or lost to teams where I can rationalize not winning the title because he was playing against either equal or superior talent across the board.

[rocksaysits420]

Yet he can't even dominate this era. I mean he has 3 titles in 12/13 seasons against some of the weakest competition of all time. And that's after getting free agents to join him and the Cavs winning 100 #1 picks. How many times would he make the finals in the east having to face Jordan/Pippen, the bad boy Pistons, and Bird/Celtics year in and year out in the east?

Tim Duncan has won 5 rings against the same basic talent and same basic era as Lebron so if Lebron is dominating what is Timmy doing? And that's basicall, theyy while running parallel to the 5 titles Kobe has since Duncan entered the league a year after so their careers basically overlapped.

So the Celtics teams that had Bird and 3 other HOF only won three titles and only had a 5 year run of being competitive (they did win a title a couple years before that run), they lost in the 1st round 3 times (twice getting sweeped). Would Bird have taking that thrash of a 07 cavs team to the finals.

Duncan and Co. won titles while the Lakers had Shaq and Kobe.

IMO, LBJ is the Most Valuable Player the NBA has ever seen (Magic is #2 on that list). You can put him on any time and they will start winning and going deep into the playoffs, take him off a team and that team is terrible. The Cavs had the worst record the year after he left and Miami missed the playoffs the year after he left.

[jmintz]

+1,00000

[ajcorleone]

Lebron ahead of Magic is kind of a disgrace in my opinion. Magic won a title without an injured Kareem. Lebron got a title with a Ray ALlen prayer and a Kyrie Irving shot. Now Magic did have Worthy bt Lebron had a terrible Cavs team first then the all mighty BIG 3 who again were decent and then finally over the hump with Kyrie and Kevin Love who is terrible in the playoffs but not in the regular season. Media has caused a sweat of Lebrons jewels.

[jmintz]

Magic won a title without an injured Kareem.

No he didn't. Kareem was injured for one game, not the series. Give Magic credit because he had a monster game, but it's not fair to say he "won without an injured Kareem."

Plus, he still had a Hall of Famer and three-time all-star on that team, Jamaal Wilkes (Worthy hadn't been drafted yet).

[ajcorleone]

ANd AGAIN other than the 1st Cavs run Lebron had Bosh, Wade Ray allen come on now please get serious.

No he didn't. Kareem was injured for one game, not the series. Give Magic credit because he had a monster game, but it's not fair to say he "won without an injured Kareem."

Plus, he still had a Hall of Famer and three-time all-star on that team, Jamaal Wilkes (Worthy hadn't been drafted yet).

[ajcorleone]

JUst out of curiousity are there folks over 40 in this conversation that actually saw Magic and the great 80's play and not just highlights?