The difference today

[GrimUSMC]

You completely missed a point of my previous post. I am saying society is structured so that is limits people's options. Why should they have to enlist? There are structures in place which can rigidly guide people to routes like that. I am saying these people shouldn't have to decide to enlist to get out of their hardships - they should have similar opportunities to pursue their own responsibilities to society, rather than having to decide on a path that is presented to them as a function of their living conditions.



This kind of proves my point about it being rare. You spew about your personal experience. While I understand that, it is nowhere near an indication that enough opportunities are open to the general population of people living under bad conditions.

What your thinking of is Communism. Some have better oppurtunities then others, thats called Capatalism. However, everyone has soem oppurtunity. If you dont liek the options your given, then its nto the goverments resposibility to make sure you get teh same chance as the kid whose parents worked hard and provided for their kids. We may not have equal chances, but we all have a chance. O and the "What if they dont want to enlist?" question, be happy you are where you are because most countries its mandatory for 18 year old men.

[themanishere]

spend any amount of time working at a homeless shelter, a battered women's center, or any number of other places and tell me that charity is a crock. There are programs in every major city to provide some form of housing and food for people who will follow the rules and guidelines of the place.

I have worked in food kitchens, shelters, AIDS clinics etc. And yes, I do think charity is a crock.

The nature of charity is fleeting - it only subdues the problem(s) temporarily. To me, that is not enough. We cannot continue fooling ourselves into thinking charity is the right system. Sure, we give people food/shelter/treatment/etc, but what does that do for these people's real lives when they're back in the streets/slums/etc? We should take them in and educate them on how to best make their own lives.

This goes back to the communal sense of accountability. It is each person's responsibility that society continues functioning as well as it can throughout the use of its resources by everyone. In educating and "correcting" these people into contributing to society, we add to the well-being and functionality of society because those people in turn assume similar responsibilities, rather than dependencies, on society. Charity essentially perpetuates these dependencies, and as such, the illusion that it works substantively.

[GrimUSMC]

I have worked in food kitchens, shelters, AIDS clinics etc. And yes, I do think charity is a crock.

The nature of charity is fleeting - it only subdues the problem(s) temporarily. To me, that is not enough. We cannot continue fooling ourselves into thinking charity is the right system. Sure, we give people food/shelter/treatment/etc, but what does that do for these people's real lives when they're back in the streets/slums/etc? We should take them in and educate them on how to best make their own lives.

This goes back to the communal sense of accountability. It is each person's responsibility that society continues functioning as well as it can throughout the use of its resources by everyone. In educating and "correcting" these people into contributing to society, we add to the well-being and functionality of society because those people in turn assume similar responsibilities, rather than dependencies, on society. Charity essentially perpetuates these dependencies, and as such, the illusion that it works substantively.

Most of them are in that position on their own doing, and are not fixable or saveable. I suppose you think criminals can be rehabilitated too??

[themanishere]

What your thinking of is Communism. Some have better oppurtunities then others, thats called Capatalism. However, everyone has soem oppurtunity. If you dont liek the options your given, then its nto the goverments resposibility to make sure you get teh same chance as the kid whose parents worked hard and provided for their kids. We may not have equal chances, but we all have a chance. O and the "What if they dont want to enlist?" question, be happy you are where you are because most countries its mandatory for 18 year old men.

I am not necessarily arguing for communism, although the concepts are admittedly socialist.

I am criticizing capitalism in that many of the structures in society are pre-determining, as has been discussed - how is that acceptable? Sure people can work hard to "earn" what they have and deserve what they can choose. The point is, the foundation of being able to work hard to "earn" something to make your own life is not close to equal for most people, which I believe is actually a consequence of capitalism itself.

I am not saying it should be the government's responsibility - you have to get it through your head that I am not arguing for welfare.

[themanishere]

Most of them are in that position on their own doing, and are not fixable or saveable. I suppose you think criminals can be rehabilitated too??

Ok, apparently you simply cannot comprehend my argument.

I am saying most of those people are forced into acting that way because they are constrained under those conditions (because of the format of our society). They have little options, and the options they do have alienate them from being able to do their own hard work, instead having to work hard at something that was of little relative choice to them, because they had to simply survive. It is a lose-lose for most of those people.

[OnePimpTiger]

I am not necessarily arguing for communism, although the concepts are admittedly socialist.

I am criticizing capitalism in that many of the structures in society are pre-determining, as has been discussed - how is that acceptable? Sure people can work hard to "earn" what they have and deserve what they can choose. The point is, the foundation of being able to work hard to "earn" something to make your own life is not close to equal for most people, which I believe is actually a consequence of capitalism itself.

I am not saying it should be the government's responsibility - you have to get it through your head that I am not arguing for welfare.

I see what you're saying, but look at any communist or socialist society throughtout history...everyone has terrible opportunities, except the government and society types, so how is that any different? Yes, the idea of Utopia is appealing, everyone contributes and everyone receives back and no one has need to want...but human nature will never allow that to happen. And when it is attempted, it ends up being much, much worse that what we have.

[GrimUSMC]

I am not necessarily arguing for communism, although the concepts are admittedly socialist.

I am criticizing capitalism in that many of the structures in society are pre-determining, as has been discussed - how is that acceptable? Sure people can work hard to "earn" what they have and deserve what they can choose. The point is, the foundation of being able to work hard to "earn" something to make your own life is not close to equal for most people, which I believe is actually a consequence of capitalism itself.

I am not saying it should be the government's responsibility - you have to get it through your head that I am not arguing for welfare.

Then what are you arguing for???? your ideas are great in theory, lol, but its just that, a theory, and one thats proven to be a failure.

I see what you're saying, but look at any communist or socialist society throughtout history...everyone has terrible opportunities, except the government and society types, so how is that any different? Yes, the idea of Utopia is appealing, everyone contributes and everyone receives back and no one has need to want...but human nature will never allow that to happen. And when it is attempted, it ends up being much, much worse that what we have.

Agreed.

[themanishere]

I see what you're saying, but look at any communist or socialist society throughtout history...everyone has terrible opportunities, except the government and society types, so how is that any different? Yes, the idea of Utopia is appealing, everyone contributes and everyone receives back and no one has need to want

I agree they have failed - but I believe one function of that is because capitalism overrides anything a single (or a few) socialist societies can do in an overall sense. It has to be a big movement, just like something above charity would have to be. And in that respect, it is idealistic.

...but human nature will never allow that to happen. And when it is attempted, it ends up being much, much worse that what we have.

It is not human nature, IMO. It is the nature of society such that we have lost control of certain conditions within it, which is why isolated attempts to wrangle it come up short.

[OnePimpTiger]

I agree they have failed - but I believe one function of that is because capitalism overrides anything a single (or a few) socialist societies can do in an overall sense. It has to be a big movement, just like something above charity would have to be. And in that respect, it is idealistic.

It is not human nature, IMO. It is the nature of society such that we have lost control of certain conditions within it, which is why isolated attempts to wrangle it come up short.

Whatever the reasoning (the nature of humans or society...or whatever else), I don't think there will ever be the perfect situation where Utopia is acheivable...and attempts to reach that point will only end in failure. Capitalism may not be perfect, but it is the best feasible option.

[themanishere]

Whatever the reasoning (the nature of humans or society...or whatever else), I don't think there will ever be the perfect situation where Utopia is acheivable...and attempts to reach that point will only end in failure. Capitalism may not be perfect, but it is the best feasible option.

I hear you. I don't think it is necessarily a thing about Utopia though - just something better than capitalism.

Any way, I think we've exhausted the discussion here...