Patch forger... caught!

[Cerialthriller]

Oh alright, so these tampered ones are strictly gameworn, in that case its a terrible thing to do, along the same lines as counterfeit autographs.

But say, on the other hand, that people like this guy change their approach to the following:

1. Buy gameworn jerseys to use and find a way to prove their authenticity.
2. Specify that they have tampered with the cards, don't lie about it.

If these two qualifications were met would you guys still undervalue the cards, or see them as "illegitimate", even though this brings us back to the argument of "Joe A with a UD paycheque manufacturer vs. Joe B on the street manufacturer, both cards use gameworn jerseys, so technically no difference other than different Joes"

they would have to get way more then book value for the cards and do it to like 20 of the same players cards to even break even on the price of the jersey, let alone the price he is paying for the original cards. If UD puts out 50 or 100 cards of the one player thats only like 1 or 2 jerseys they bought for 50-100 cards. So its in no way cost effective to fake with actually real game used memorabilia.

[SenatorsFan]

they would have to get way more then book value for the cards and do it to like 20 of the same players cards to even break even on the price of the jersey, let alone the price he is paying for the original cards. If UD puts out 50 or 100 cards of the one player thats only like 1 or 2 jerseys they bought for 50-100 cards. So its in no way cost effective to fake with actually real game used memorabilia.

It can be cost effective if you do it efficiently though, for instance lets say the guy bought 15 of the most plain Patrick Kane The Cup Rookies, bought a game-used Jersey of his for $800-1000, and then transformed those 15 cards into beautiful multicolored patches, he would certainly make money re-selling them. The profit he earned from the newly formed cards would easily surpass the $800-1000 he spent on the jersey.

Anyways, my question wasn't really taking into account to plausibility of going through with such an endeavour, but moreso to question collectors as to how they would value such a card, would they deem it as "illegitimate" merely on the basis that Joe A from UD didn't put the patch in himself?

[Collectnum74]

It can be cost effective if you do it efficiently though, for instance lets say the guy bought 15 of the most plain Patrick Kane The Cup Rookies, bought a game-used Jersey of his for $800-1000, and then transformed those 15 cards into beautiful multicolored patches, he would certainly make money re-selling them. The profit he earned from the newly formed cards would easily surpass the $800-1000 he spent on the jersey.

Anyways, my question wasn't really taking into account to plausibility of going through with such an endeavour, but moreso to question collectors as to how they would value such a card, would they deem it as "illegitimate" merely on the basis that Joe A from UD didn't put the patch in himself?

Joe A from UD has the actual game worn patch which deems it legit where as Joe B from his parents basement who is sticking Non game work store bought patches on the card. Joe A from UD has a legit card actually worth something where as Joe B has a piece of junk that can be tossed into the trash.

[SenatorsFan]

Joe A from UD has the actual game worn patch which deems it legit where as Joe B from his parents basement who is sticking Non game work store bought patches on the card. Joe A from UD has a legit card actually worth something where as Joe B has a piece of junk that can be tossed into the trash.

You didn't read my last post. That's not the question I was asking at all.

But say, on the other hand, that people like this guy change their approach to the following:

1. Buy gameworn jerseys to use and find a way to prove their authenticity.
2. Specify that they have tampered with the cards, don't lie about it.

If these two qualifications were met would you guys still undervalue the cards, or see them as "illegitimate", even though this brings us back to the argument of "Joe A with a UD paycheque manufacturer vs. Joe B on the street manufacturer, both cards use gameworn jerseys, so technically no difference other than different Joes"

[roy.the.greatest]

To SCF Mods... although I discuss another site, I hope the essence of this thread and seriousness of the issue overshadows the site name.

If any of you have been purchasers from either of these two eBay user IDs, please email me with the card scans and I can provide them to the appropriate parties. Thanks for the HI members who made most of these findings!!

Bruce

Bruce,

"Patch forger"... in the hobby we call that "altered cards". The specificity here is about the guy that focus on replacing patches on cards, like other people is about false autographs. It is totally illegal when the buyer isn't aware the card was altered, similar to customs cards made by collectors without licenses: legal when it is not for sale, illegal for resale without information provided to the buyer. This is why it is illegal here. With so many collectors in the Toronto area, even a reputable dealer (marcello_capoferri on auction #370193653533) reselling one of the fake patch card, the Toronto Expo as a major card show is his area, it is surprising that nobody catched this guy trying to trade/sell a fake patch card "live".

By the way, you are always welcome to post here, it is not like on HI where the high-end collectors not friends of Steve Angel are not allowed on this private forum. We can share the same floor at the Toronto Expo, but not the same virtual community, strange? ;)

[gregmal05]

Funny thing that may be overlooked here is that the Ebay seller who actually sold the doctored Bergeron patch (marcello capoferri) has auctioned off a ton of the same cards seller kao seneca has including an Ovechkin LL with the "washington" inscription on the center of the capitol building.

[Cerialthriller]

It can be cost effective if you do it efficiently though, for instance lets say the guy bought 15 of the most plain Patrick Kane The Cup Rookies, bought a game-used Jersey of his for $800-1000, and then transformed those 15 cards into beautiful multicolored patches, he would certainly make money re-selling them. The profit he earned from the newly formed cards would easily surpass the $800-1000 he spent on the jersey.

Anyways, my question wasn't really taking into account to plausibility of going through with such an endeavour, but moreso to question collectors as to how they would value such a card, would they deem it as "illegitimate" merely on the basis that Joe A from UD didn't put the patch in himself?

youd spend probably over $1000 getting 15 Patrick Kane cup rookies and then probably around $3000 getting a Kane Authentic Game Worn Jersey. Youd have to sell each of the 15 for $270 to break even. It doesnt matter how people feel about it because you'll never see it.

[Crater_Satori]

Wow!! That is some sick stuff here. It's stuff like this that makes me really happy that I don't collect high end cards. I'd be sick to me stomach if i had spent a few hundred bucks picking up one of this guys sales, only to find out it's a fake. ...

I wonder, is this like being the last guy with counterfeit money. Where the last guy holding it is the one who takes the hit? Or would anyone of these purchasers be able to get their money back some how?

I would really like to be kept apprised of this situation, specifically what Ebay's and the RCMP's responses will be.

Thanks Bruce, you and the guys over at HI have seem to have done some really good work catching this guy, I just hope you have enough evidence to nail this dirt bag.

[SenatorsFan]

youd spend probably over $1000 getting 15 Patrick Kane cup rookies and then probably around $3000 getting a Kane Authentic Game Worn Jersey. Youd have to sell each of the 15 for $270 to break even.

I'll just break this down. In theory, you can pick up Kane The Cup rookies with plain patches for about $500. A game worn jersey shouldn't cost you more than $1000, not $3000. Kane The Cup rookies with multicolored patches fetch up to $2000 a piece. In this scenario, the seller would make significant profit. There's no denying that.

It doesnt matter how people feel about it because you'll never see it.

Heck, for argument's sake, lets just say the guy knows people in the Blackhawks organization and is able to get a couple jerseys for free, or wins one somehow, whatever right. Thus his expenses are zero. Don't dismiss this scenario as a real possibility, people are able to obtain free game worn jerseys all the time, and it stands to reason that they'll change the cards, assuming that they have the skills of course.

Why would something like this never happen? I don't understand.

Additionally, even if this was purely a hypothetical theory (which it isn't), why do you suggest that people's opinions regarding the issue don't matter? It's like responding to the question of "What would you do if you could time travel?" with "Nope, not answering, it'll never happen".

[SenatorsFan]

I wonder, is this like being the last guy with counterfeit money. Where the last guy holding it is the one who takes the hit? Or would anyone of these purchasers be able to get their money back some how?

That's a big problem, indeed. Even if you could track it back to the original seller on Ebay, he could just say that he bought the cards at a show from some anonymous person he can't remember, right?