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View Full Version : Atheists lose court battle with IRS



shrewsbury
05-24-2014, 09:35 AM
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/05/23/atheists-lose-court-battle-irs/


American Atheists and its co-plaintiffs argued that tax filing requirements for nonprofit atheist groups are unfairly tougher than they are for religious nonprofits. They contended that churches and other religious organizations should have to meet the same standards that other nonprofits meet in disclosing information on their donors, employee salaries and other details about the organization.

what do you think? should they have the same rights?


I believe we often use the phrase "separation of church and state", not non-profit and state. So does this mean a religious group gets special exemptions and they should? Does this mean atheism wants to be considered a religion? are they jealous?

Wickabee
05-24-2014, 07:18 PM
What is a non profit atheist group? Do atheists need to raise money to run their nothing?

JustAlex
05-25-2014, 08:35 PM
I'm not gonna get too much into this because I think it's a waste, there's only one thing that interests me....


“A review of case law establishes that the words ‘church,’ ‘religious organization,’ and ‘minister,’ do not necessarily require a theistic or deity-centered meaning,” the court wrote.

The atheists held that to apply to the IRS for status as a religious organization would go against their principles.
^I agree with both statements.

A "Church" does not need to be centered around a deity.

But at the same time there is no way in hell that American Atheists want to label themselves a 'church' or 'religious organization'.

So this is something that either American Atheists will have to keep fighting or maybe regrettably accept....

Because one thing is for DAMN sure....

IF American Atheists didn't have to report it's donors...they WOULD get a lot more money.

There's no doubt that a significant portion of the U.S are "closeted atheists" and even if they MIGHT or DO support atheists causes they don't want to be associated by name with atheists or their organizations.


Although in the end, I think eventually with time, atheists will become bigger and bigger....this is NOT a fad, the U.S is QUICKLY becoming less and less religious and atheism is growing while religions are declining.

It's inevitable.

This is why I don't have any crazy wishes to ban religion, religion will slowly become a background noise (like the way it's currently in England, France, and the Scandinavian countries)....so too will the U.S....unfortunately, it just takes them a lot longer than the other first world countries because America is always BEHIND in progress.

Wickabee
05-25-2014, 08:43 PM
http://firstchurchofatheism.com/contact-us/



But at the same time there is no way in hell that American Atheists want to label themselves a 'church' or...

Check the mailing address.

Wickabee
05-25-2014, 09:14 PM
And I think you meant this is not a fad. That would definitely be a trend.

JustAlex
05-25-2014, 11:26 PM
Yes, I corrected myself...

And I'm talking about "American Atheists" (the organization).

I have no idea what the hell the "church of atheism" is nor do I care, I don't support ANY religious nonsense whether it's religious or not at the core.

In the past I have shown support for FSM, Satanists, and hell even sects of Christianity...

But only because they share certain ideologies with me.

FSM is satirical and shows religions how nonsensical it is to believe in god....I support this because it shows that god is just as likely to be a flying spaghetti monster than the sky daddy he is for christians, and all the other crazy stuff that FSM parodies is just as likely to be true than the even MORE stupidity that's in the brain dead bible.

The sects of Christianity I support are the ones I personally believe are doing the best to promote the words of Jesus....this means they must be actively looking towards helping their fellow man....and NOT by converting them, but by offering food and help to the poor, volunteering to help those that are most in need or that are sick, truly loving thy neighbor despite their sexual orientation or even if they agree with their beliefs or not.

The majority don't even come close to this.....and the most hypocritical of ALL christians are Far right fundamentalist Christians.

In the end religions biggest enemy is not us (atheists) it's themselves.

Wickabee
05-26-2014, 12:32 AM
Alright.

You can become a cleric though. The site says there's special parking in some places. I'm considering it to perform weddings.

You see, just as the bad side of Christianity ends up representing the whole, stuff like this does too. This is what lends to atheism just being another religion and so on. Just as they all have to bear their cross, so to speak, it's only fair you do too. I've never asked you to agree with it, just understand it and know what you're saying.

Personally, anyone who is a politician and openly zealous about their Christianity are the very people Jesus denounces in the bible.

JustAlex
05-26-2014, 12:47 AM
The site can say whatever the hell it wants to say.

Atheism, UNLIKE Christianity is NOT religious in nature.

The fact that there is a group out there that are atheists and religious about it does not hinder that statement.

Think about it like this....did you ever see Futurama?

There was an episode which shows that Star Trek fans became so enamored with the show they actually started the "Church of Trek".

Does that mean Star Trek is religious in nature?

Of course not.

Atheism is the same....it's not religious in nature, it's literally impossible to be religious because it doesn't have any set ideologies, practices, rituals, rules or ANYTHING other than not believing in god(s).

Christianity has MANY ideologies than just believing in god.

And depending on the sect of christianity there are TONS of rituals and rules for belonging in said sect.

I literally have to do nothing to be an atheist except not believe in god.

After that I can believe whatever the hell I want to believe.

Wickabee
05-26-2014, 01:09 AM
I understand that. The thing is if atheists are going to talk about all the things "Christians" are, it's only fair you accept being lumped in with these kooks a well.

duane1969
05-27-2014, 11:12 AM
How are atheism and religion not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about religion with those within their group. Both desire to convert those who see things differently to their way of thinking. Both groups will rally together to protest or demonstrate against something that doesn't fall in line with their beliefs.

mrveggieman
05-27-2014, 11:24 AM
How are atheism and religion not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about religion with those within their group. Both desire to convert those who see things differently to their way of thinking. Both groups will rally together to protest or demonstrate against something that doesn't fall in line with their beliefs.

I have to agree with you on that Duane.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 12:05 PM
How are atheism and religion not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about religion with those within their group. Both desire to convert those who see things differently to their way of thinking. Both groups will rally together to protest or demonstrate against something that doesn't fall in line with their beliefs.

Veggie will like this:

How are the Hells Angels and police department not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about corruption in a community. Both desire to have control over communities. Both groups will congregate to further their own goals and kill others that do not agree with their goals.

Must be one in the same.

mrveggieman
05-27-2014, 12:21 PM
double post

mrveggieman
05-27-2014, 12:22 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/50121291.jpg

Wickabee
05-27-2014, 12:23 PM
They're opposite sides of the &quot;law&quot; coin. <br />
<br />
I mean, one is a group pretty bent on breaking laws, while the other is bent on enforcing laws. <br />
<br />
To put it to this topic, religion is groups of people...

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 12:31 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/50121291.jpg

Close.

mrveggieman
05-27-2014, 12:37 PM
Veggie will like this:

How are the Hells Angels and police department not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about corruption in a community. Both desire to have control over communities. Both groups will congregate to further their own goals and kill others that do not agree with their goals.

Must be one in the same.

You also forgot about both of them mutually hating minorities.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 12:43 PM
You also forgot about both of them mutually hating minorities.

Yes, and I am sure they are similar in many other ways. That still wouldn't make them the same thing.

mrveggieman
05-27-2014, 01:11 PM
Yes, and I am sure they are similar in many other ways. That still wouldn't make them the same thing.


It's a case of picking your poison when dealing with them.

seal006
05-27-2014, 01:11 PM
From Wikipedia:
"A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."

Does this not make them the same? There is no mention of God, or any other diety. Wikipedia goes on to explain how some religions have things like symbols, ceremonies, ethics, laws, and so on. But it does not say that they must have these things.

The world today is based on order. Order is done by classification. So atheist are being asked to determine what their classification is. With all this said, atheism should be considered a religious group. Therefore they should receive the same treatment as other religious groups.

I am a Christian. As such, part of my beliefs is, "All men are created equal." I do not have to agree or believe in what they do, but I do have to accept that they are entitled to it just as much as I am.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:20 PM
From Wikipedia:
"A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence."

Does this not make them the same? There is no mention of God, or any other diety. Wikipedia goes on to explain how some religions have things like symbols, ceremonies, ethics, laws, and so on. But it does not say that they must have these things.

The world today is based on order. Order is done by classification. So atheist are being asked to determine what their classification is. With all this said, atheism should be considered a religious group. Therefore they should receive the same treatment as other religious groups.

I am a Christian. As such, part of my beliefs is, "All men are created equal." I do not have to agree or believe in what they do, but I do have to accept that they are entitled to it just as much as I am.

There are no collection of beliefs attributed to Atheism. There is only one.

seal006
05-27-2014, 01:37 PM
There are no collection of beliefs attributed to Atheism. There is only one.

That in of itself IS a collection.

If I have only one Pete Rose card. That is my Pete Rose collection.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:39 PM
That in of itself IS a collection.

If I have only one Pete Rose card. That is my Pete Rose collection.

I have a belief that peanut butter is better than jelly. Am I a religion now?

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:41 PM
Is Capitalism a religion?

seal006
05-27-2014, 01:41 PM
I have a belief that peanut butter is better than jelly. Am I a religion now?
If you have a group of others that believe the same that you do.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:43 PM
If you have a group of others that believe the same that you do.

Well I don't have their names in my contact list, but I am sure there are more of us out there. You wanna join our religion?

seal006
05-27-2014, 01:47 PM
I feel you have totally jumped the shark, and are now only taking parts out of context in order to further your own agenda.

Wickabee
05-27-2014, 01:51 PM
I feel you have totally jumped the shark, and are now only taking parts out of context in order to further your own agenda.

Now?

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:54 PM
I feel you have totally jumped the shark, and are now only taking parts out of context in order to further your own agenda.

You caught that did you? Okay, let's reset. Atheism is a disbelief in one thing. It is not a collection of beliefs in anything. Is that in context? And what about science? Is science a religion?

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 01:55 PM
Now?

No one is talking to you. Stop trying to engage us.

seal006
05-27-2014, 02:03 PM
You caught that did you? Okay, let's reset. Atheism is a disbelief in one thing. It is not a collection of beliefs in anything. Is that in context? And what about science? Is science a religion?
Here is where the rubber meets the road. Atheist came up with the term "atheist". They have used it to describe themselves to others. Their "disbelief" in God, is their "belief". Therefore in the modern day world they are "classified" with the other "groups" that have a belief in a god or other diety. This classification is called "Religion."

My point from the beginning is that I believe they should receive any benefit that any other "religous" group receives. PERIOD.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 02:12 PM
Here is where the rubber meets the road. Atheist came up with the term "atheist". They have used it to describe themselves to others. Their "disbelief" in God, is their "belief". Therefore in the modern day world they are "classified" with the other "groups" that have a belief in a god or other diety. This classification is called "Religion."

My point from the beginning is that I believe they should receive any benefit that any other "religous" group receives. PERIOD.

So in this modern world, do we classify "people who are against drugs" in with the "heroin addicts, the meth heads, the pill pushers, the alcoholics, the smokers"; or do we say, "wait a minute, they have a belief about the same subject matter but it is the completely opposite view".

seal006
05-27-2014, 02:36 PM
So in this modern world, do we classify "people who are against drugs" in with the "heroin addicts, the meth heads, the pill pushers, the alcoholics, the smokers"; or do we say, "wait a minute, they have a belief about the same subject matter but it is the completely opposite view".
Yes, we do. The are sub classes of the same subject. "for" and "against". Everything is classified as something, and falls under a much bigger heading than it is itself. It is how the world works. Always has and always will. The problem is that this article was speaking how Atheist wanted to be treated the same. The government did not see it that way. I am arguing why they SHOULD be treated the same. You are arguing that they are not the same at all.

So do you agree with the US gvernment that Athiesm is NOT a religion, and should NOT be afforded the same benefits? If this is your belief, then show me how the world looks at the order of things, and how that look seperates the Atheist from the other religious groups.

shrewsbury
05-27-2014, 02:47 PM
All my religious study courses, in college, have had chapters on atheism.

True atheist, such as my brothers, could care less about religion or what religious people are doing, they simply do not believe in god.

what I would call modern atheists do care about religion and in fact are fixated on it. Their belief is more about proving themselves right and religion wrong, it is more of an anti-religion movement than anything else.

Wickabee
05-27-2014, 02:48 PM
No one is talking to you. Stop trying to engage us.

Um...you're talking to me. Right there.

Stop using my words two hours later. Get your own material. Maybe try...thinking.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 02:48 PM
Yes, we do. The are sub classes of the same subject. "for" and "against". Everything is classified as something, and falls under a much bigger heading than it is itself. It is how the world works. Always has and always will. The problem is that this article was speaking how Atheist wanted to be treated the same. The government did not see it that way. I am arguing why they SHOULD be treated the same. You are arguing that they are not the same at all.

So do you agree with the US gvernment that Athiesm is NOT a religion, and should NOT be afforded the same benefits? If this is your belief, then show me how the world looks at the order of things, and how that look seperates the Atheist from the other religious groups.

I am arguing that the only similarity they have is their Non-profit designation. I am sure they are arguing the same thing.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 02:50 PM
All my religious study courses, in college, have had chapters on atheism.

True atheist, such as my brothers, could care less about religion or what religious people are doing, they simply do not believe in god.

what I would call modern atheists do care about religion and in fact are fixated on it. Their belief is more about proving themselves right and religion wrong, it is more of an anti-religion movement than anything else.

Exactly, just because they are focused on the same subject matter doe snot mean they can be categorized as the same thing.

seal006
05-27-2014, 03:00 PM
I am arguing that the only similarity they have is their Non-profit designation. I am sure they are arguing the same thing.
There is no argument as to if they are non-profit or not. My son's Lacrosse team is a non-profit entity. But unlike churches, the team has to disclose the folks that contributed more than $75 to it to the IRS. This is what they are arguing. They are not treated as the same and want to be. They want churches to disclose just like they have to.

seal006
05-27-2014, 03:04 PM
Exactly, just because they are focused on the same subject matter doe snot mean they can be categorized as the same thing.

It IS the same subject matter that links them to be categorized together.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 03:06 PM
It IS the same subject matter that links them to be categorized together.

Okay. Based on that I am going to start calling all pro-life people "Abortionists". Same subject matter, so pro-life and pro-choice are all the same - abortionists.

seal006
05-27-2014, 03:29 PM
Okay. Based on that I am going to start calling all pro-life people "Abortionists". Same subject matter, so pro-life and pro-choice are all the same - abortionists.
Those both fall under the Abortion Choice category. They are either for it or against it. Religion has had god or other diety attached to it in modern times. There are those that ar 'for" and then there are those like athiest that are "against." If they were actually indifferent, I could see your argument. But as stated before, today's athiest falls more in the "against" category rather than indifferent. Read the definition of Atheism here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism by taking on that name or title if you will, they have placed themselves in the religion category.

shrewsbury
05-27-2014, 03:34 PM
There are religions with no god, so?

seal006
05-27-2014, 03:37 PM
There are religions with no god, so?
That is not the argument here. The argument is that they want churches to have to disclose their contributors. The argument should have been for religious reasons the Atheist should not have to disclose.

duane1969
05-27-2014, 04:17 PM
Veggie will like this:

How are the Hells Angels and police department not alike? Both are groups of people that gather together based on their beliefs. Both groups share a commonality of opinions and beliefs about corruption in a community. Both desire to have control over communities. Both groups will congregate to further their own goals and kill others that do not agree with their goals.

Must be one in the same.

Try understanding the words when you read them. I said atheism and religion are ALIKE, not the same.

shrewsbury
05-27-2014, 04:21 PM
Therefore in the modern day world they are "classified" with the other "groups" that have a belief in a god or other diety. This classification is called "Religion."


again, not all religions have a god


Atheist came up with the term "atheist". They have used it to describe themselves to others.

Not accurate, you may want to recheck that.

seal006
05-27-2014, 04:49 PM
again, not all religions have a god



Not accurate, you may want to recheck that.
Correct, not all religions have a god, but they all have a fundamental belief. That belief is what makes them a religion. The VAST MAJORITY of religions do have a god or diety at the center. And yes, I do understand that the word Atheist is an old word. I think you misundestood me. Modern Atheist choose that word to describe themselves despite the origin of the word itself. If they do not want that association, why not call themselves something else all together, something new.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 06:41 PM
Try understanding the words when you read them. I said atheism and religion are ALIKE, not the same.

Okay, remove the "Must be one in the same." line. My point still stands on its own. Atheism and religion are no more alike than the police and the Hells Angels.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 06:42 PM
Those both fall under the Abortion Choice category. They are either for it or against it. Religion has had god or other diety attached to it in modern times. There are those that ar 'for" and then there are those like athiest that are "against." If they were actually indifferent, I could see your argument. But as stated before, today's athiest falls more in the "against" category rather than indifferent. Read the definition of Atheism here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism by taking on that name or title if you will, they have placed themselves in the religion category.

Okay, so Atheism and religion both fall under the God choice category. Not religion category. Agreed?

seal006
05-27-2014, 06:47 PM
Okay, so Atheism and religion both fall under the God choice category. Not religion category. Agreed?
I am all for intelligent arguments, but now you seem to be grasping for straw. Think about your argument some more and get back with me. I am not going anywhere.

habsheaven
05-27-2014, 07:02 PM
I am all for intelligent arguments, but now you seem to be grasping for straw. Think about your argument some more and get back with me. I am not going anywhere.

pro-choice and pro-life = abortion CHOICE category according to you, not simply abortion.

Theist and Atheist = somehow become a religion category instead of a God CHOICE category.

Chocolate or Vanilla? Is that an ICE CREAM Category or a CHOICE category?

Quick tell me, because I got to know.

Who's grasping?

Wickabee
05-27-2014, 07:20 PM
Habs is right.

shrewsbury
05-27-2014, 09:37 PM
Correct, not all religions have a god, but they all have a fundamental belief. That belief is what makes them a religion. The VAST MAJORITY of religions do have a god or diety at the center. And yes, I do understand that the word Atheist is an old word. I think you misundestood me. Modern Atheist choose that word to describe themselves despite the origin of the word itself. If they do not want that association, why not call themselves something else all together, something new.

I cannot argue with that.
Great post.

seal006
05-27-2014, 10:32 PM
I cannot argue with that.
Great post.
Thank you

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 12:05 AM
Thank you

For a guy who is going to be around all night, where is the response to my post #50? Take your time. I'm going to bed.

seal006
05-28-2014, 12:42 AM
Theist and Atheist = somehow become a religion category instead of a God CHOICE category.


I have purposely not responded because you seem to not want to have inteligent conversation. Of the post of your's that I am quoting, I am only showing the part I feel is relavent to the conversation. Religion does not need to have a god, just a belief. The Atheist belief that there is no god is one that they spread to others. They try to make folks understand and believe what they do. I think a key component of religion is the act of influence or attempt to influence others into their beliefs by showing them either facts or feelings to support that belief. The belief that there is in fact a god or that there is no god is a matter of importance to us as humans. More important than peanut butter is better than jelly. Religions deal with matters that are important globally.

Making a mockery of it does not prove your point as valid. The fact is that Atheist do not believe there is a god. They do try to influence others into feeling the same. They often try to disprove others with theories that differ from their own. Globally there are millions that feel the same way. So see there is not a single thing that makes Atheism a religion. It is a combonation of a bunch of things.

JustAlex
05-28-2014, 01:19 AM
I am a Christian. As such, part of my beliefs is, "All men are created equal."
It might be your personal beliefs, and I fully support said belief....HOWEVER, it is not an inherent Christian belief, and I'll explain why....

No where....absolutely NO WHERE in the bible does it say "all men are created equal".

And seeing as the bible ENDORSES Slavery, rape, and genocide and says the Jews are the "Chosen People".....it's quite evident that all men are NOT created equal.

JustAlex
05-28-2014, 01:22 AM
Is Capitalism a religion?
^Excellent example, and let me make other examples which shows that having a common belief system does NOT mean that certain thing is a religion.

Is the fact that I'm a Heat fan a religion?

Or that you're a Canadiens fan?

Is every single sports fan in a religion of said sports team?


So, my fellow SCF members, I URGE you to join the Religion of The Miami Heat!

We are the ONE TRUE Basketball team that will restore the NBA and bring balance to the force!

Join us! For if you are not with us you are AGAINST US!

Praise to EL HEAT, thank you basketball gods for showing me the light and bringing me to the one and only true basketball religion....the Miami Heat!

JustAlex
05-28-2014, 01:25 AM
True atheist, such as my brothers, could care less about religion or what religious people are doing, they simply do not believe in god.
There's no such thing as a "true atheist".

An atheist is ANYONE who doesn't believe in god, regardless of any of his other beliefs.

This is yet another example why atheism is NOT a religion.....atheism is NOT united, we all have different beliefs.

An atheist can literally be anyone with any type of belief system as long as he doesn't believe in god.

So YES, technically an atheist CAN be religious, but atheism itself is NOT religious.

Kinda like theism.

Theism on the surface is NOT religious.....you can believe in god and not be religious.

seal006
05-28-2014, 01:33 AM
It might be your personal beliefs, and I fully support said belief....HOWEVER, it is not an inherent Christian belief, and I'll explain why....

No where....absolutely NO WHERE in the bible does it say "all men are created equal".

And seeing as the bible ENDORSES Slavery, rape, and genocide and says the Jews are the "Chosen People".....it's quite evident that all men are NOT created equal.
Never said it was in the Bible. It is in fact a quote by Thomas Jefferson, who was one of our countries founding fathers. I believe a lot of what the US was founded on was Christianity. I do not believe that the Bible endorses all those things you mention. I believe, like the history book I studied in highschool, it tells about accounts of said things happening.

JustAlex
05-28-2014, 01:46 AM
Never said it was in the Bible. It is in fact a quote by Thomas Jefferson, who was one of our countries founding fathers.
Ah yes, Thomas Jefferson....I like him (even though he had slaves himself though)....

BTW, have you ever heard of the "Jefferson Bible"?

Here, you might be interested in it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

^Thomas Jefferson pretty much took out ALL of Jesus' miracles and other supernatural stuff....because he didn't believe in that stuff and he had some harsh stuff to say about Christianity BTW...

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Thomas Jefferson was no Christian I'm afraid, he was more than likely a Deist.


I do not believe that the Bible endorses all those things you mention.
Unfortunately, it does:

http://www.openbible.info/topics/slavery (Slavery)

http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape (Rape)

http://www.openbible.info/topics/genocide (Genocide)


See ^These are the things they don't teach you in Sunday School.....I was a christian for a long time and I never knew that the Bible endorsed Slavery, Rape, and other bad stuff....imagine my huge surprise when I found out.

mrveggieman
05-28-2014, 08:27 AM
There's no such thing as a "true atheist".

An atheist is ANYONE who doesn't believe in god, regardless of any of his other beliefs.

This is yet another example why atheism is NOT a religion.....atheism is NOT united, we all have different beliefs.

An atheist can literally be anyone with any type of belief system as long as he doesn't believe in god.

So YES, technically an atheist CAN be religious, but atheism itself is NOT religious.

Kinda like theism.

Theism on the surface is NOT religious.....you can believe in god and not be religious.

I remember back in the day when I was into islam some Christian woman tried to insult me and call me an atheist. Per Christian beliefs are muslims atheists too?

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 08:57 AM
I have purposely not responded because you seem to not want to have inteligent conversation. Of the post of your's that I am quoting, I am only showing the part I feel is relavent to the conversation. Religion does not need to have a god, just a belief. The Atheist belief that there is no god is one that they spread to others. They try to make folks understand and believe what they do. I think a key component of religion is the act of influence or attempt to influence others into their beliefs by showing them either facts or feelings to support that belief. The belief that there is in fact a god or that there is no god is a matter of importance to us as humans. More important than peanut butter is better than jelly. Religions deal with matters that are important globally.

Making a mockery of it does not prove your point as valid. The fact is that Atheist do not believe there is a god. They do try to influence others into feeling the same. They often try to disprove others with theories that differ from their own. Globally there are millions that feel the same way. So see there is not a single thing that makes Atheism a religion. It is a combonation of a bunch of things.


It doesn't matter what the subject matter. You are categorizing some things as the subject and others as a choice. It's inconsistent and disingenuous. Of course you find the rest of my post irrelevant; it goes against your argument.

Is the "You seem to not want to have a intelligent conversation" a slight against my intelligence? We were just given a notice about that. As for your argument, comparing choices of different things is not making a mockery of anything. It is pointing out the inconsistency of your argument. The Boy Scouts spread a message too. That doesn't make them a religion. Pro-choice people spread their message too. Doesn't make them a religion either.

shrewsbury
05-28-2014, 09:00 AM
veggie, no Muslims are not atheist.

alex, a true atheist is just someone who does not believe in god, it is not anti religious. They could care less about religion, so there is no need to attack someone else's beliefs.

mrveggieman
05-28-2014, 09:05 AM
veggie, no Muslims are not atheist.

alex, a true atheist is just someone who does not believe in god, it is not anti religious. They could care less about religion, so there is no need to attack someone else's beliefs.

I am glad that you cleared that up. I was afraid that I missed that memo lol. On the cool its sad that someone has to resort to calling someone an atheist when they have no argument.

seal006
05-28-2014, 09:30 AM
Unfortunately, it does:

http://www.openbible.info/topics/slavery (Slavery)
Here again, someone taking something out of context to further their own agenda. The "slaves" referred in these passages are not the same as what we think of as slaves today. These "slaves" are what we would now call prisoners of war. These passages are not condoning the buying and selling of humans. It is talking about the treatment of the ones which are captured during war. It was very common in those days for people that were defeated lived to serve like maids and laborers of the people that conquored them.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/rape (Rape)

Are you even reading these verses before you put a link up to them? These verses are not condoning rape. They are talking about punishment for a rapist.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/genocide (Genocide)

And again, out of context. This "genocide" was God wiping ou an entire race of people for their sins they had committed. He used the Israelites to preform the task.
See ^These are the things they don't teach you in Sunday School.....I was a christian for a long time and I never knew that the Bible endorsed Slavery, Rape, and other bad stuff....imagine my huge surprise when I found out.

And, NEWSFLASH!!!!!!! These are all from the Old Testament. This is all from a time BEFORE Jesus Christ. The teachings of Christ, and his dying for our sins is what CHRISTIANITY is founded on. Hence the name, CHRISTianity.

Also, going offtopic, does not further your cause either.

Star_Cards
05-28-2014, 10:17 AM
All my religious study courses, in college, have had chapters on atheism.

True atheist, such as my brothers, could care less about religion or what religious people are doing, they simply do not believe in god.

what I would call modern atheists do care about religion and in fact are fixated on it. Their belief is more about proving themselves right and religion wrong, it is more of an anti-religion movement than anything else.

I'm concerned what religions are doing only when religious ideals are being used to justify legislation. For me it's not about proving people wrong in their beliefs. It's about some people who want to rule all based off of a personal religious belief.

I also hate when I have to sit in traffic to let people out of a church parking lot, but that's not solely directed at traffic exiting religious venues.

mrveggieman
05-28-2014, 10:21 AM
I'm concerned what religions are doing only when religious ideals are being used to justify legislation. For me it's not about proving people wrong in their beliefs. It's about some people who want to rule all based off of a personal religious belief.

I also hate when I have to sit in traffic to let people out of a church parking lot, but that's not solely directed at traffic exiting religious venues.


The same thing could be said for traffic after a ballgame or school.

Star_Cards
05-28-2014, 10:31 AM
The same thing could be said for traffic after a ballgame or school.

yes!!!

seal006
05-28-2014, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE=habsheaven;13410384
Chocolate or Vanilla? Is that an ICE CREAM Category or a CHOICE category?

Quick tell me, because I got to know.

Who's grasping?[/QUOTE]
This is intelligent??

The word choice was meant to be part of the category name not seperate, but if it is confusing you, leave it off. But things like abortion have nothing to do with religion anyway. There are people from different rligions that have different opinions about abortion within their own religion.

...Desperately trying to get back the the OP question... The US government allows churches to not have to give out the names of their donors. One poster responded by stating that Atheist would get more donors if they did not have to reveal their sources. This statement is true, so why not allow your group to be recognized with the other groups that do receive this benefit?

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 11:42 AM
You said this:


It IS the same subject matter that links them to be categorized together.

Explain to me how this statement does NOT apply to the abortion debate.

You grouped together opposing sides related to the subject of God yet you will not group together opposing sides related to the subject of abortion. Why?

Wickabee
05-28-2014, 11:43 AM
There's no such thing as a "true atheist".

An atheist is ANYONE who doesn't believe in god, regardless of any of his other beliefs.

This is yet another example why atheism is NOT a religion.....atheism is NOT united, we all have different beliefs.

An atheist can literally be anyone with any type of belief system as long as he doesn't believe in god.

So YES, technically an atheist CAN be religious, but atheism itself is NOT religious.

Kinda like theism.

Theism on the surface is NOT religious.....you can believe in god and not be religious.

A true atheist does indeed exist. A true atheist believes there is no god, it's not someone that doesn't believe in god (and there is a difference).

Atheism is a theism. There are three theisms: atheism, monotheism, and polytheism.

Atheism is the belief no god exists.
Monotheism, one god.
Polytheism, multiple gods.

Atheism is a belief regarding god's existence. Just like agnosticism is a belief regarding our ability to gain knowledge of god. Atheism is a theism. It's right in the word, after the 'a'.

Star_Cards
05-28-2014, 11:47 AM
Personally I don't really see the issue of having donor lists being made public for any group, even religions. Do people really need to know where others donate money? I guess some people who give large sums could be questioned publicly, but for the majority of people I don't see the issue either way.

seal006
05-28-2014, 11:54 AM
You said this:



Explain to me how this statement does NOT apply to the abortion debate.

You grouped together opposing sides related to the subject of God yet you will not group together opposing sides related to the subject of abortion. Why?
It DOES!!!! You are talking in circles. But because a group of people believe in abortion it DOES NOT make them a religion. That is my point on how the thread has gotten offtrack of it intended purpose.

Wickabee
05-28-2014, 11:57 AM
Personally I don't really see the issue of having donor lists being made public for any group, even religions. Do people really need to know where others donate money? I guess some people who give large sums could be questioned publicly, but for the majority of people I don't see the issue either way.

People who give large sums could also give many small sums to avoid questioning.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 01:15 PM
It DOES!!!! You are talking in circles. But because a group of people believe in abortion it DOES NOT make them a religion. That is my point on how the thread has gotten offtrack of it intended purpose.

You are getting confused. My point was: according to your groupings atheism should be grouped as a God choice group, not a religion. Just as you labeled both sides of the abortion debate as an abortion choice group.

And it is not off-track. You are incorrectly justifying the Atheist position by calling them a religion because that's apparently how the world categorizes everything. I am telling you that the only group they both belong in is Non-profit.

mrveggieman
05-28-2014, 01:23 PM
Now you have to admit some atheists take their atheism as their own personal crusade. For example I don't belive that mickey mouse is lord and savior, turned water into wine nor died on the cross and I am not going to go on a personal crusade to disprove anyone who does. Why do atheists go on a personal crusade to disprove God or religion of they believe that it is false just like you believe that mickey mouse is not lord? Is something striking a nerve?

Star_Cards
05-28-2014, 01:56 PM
Now you have to admit some atheists take their atheism as their own personal crusade. For example I don't belive that mickey mouse is lord and savior, turned water into wine nor died on the cross and I am not going to go on a personal crusade to disprove anyone who does. Why do atheists go on a personal crusade to disprove God or religion of they believe that it is false just like you believe that mickey mouse is not lord? Is something striking a nerve?

I think a lot of the outrage has to do with so many people trying to create laws and include their religion within our government. For me it's frustrating to have so many people who look past individual rights and would rather use their personal religious beliefs to legislate.

seal006
05-28-2014, 02:02 PM
I am telling you that the only group they both belong in is Non-profit.

Then fine, stop complaining about what others get.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 02:54 PM
Then fine, stop complaining about what others get.

Huh? For starters, I'm not the one complaining. As for this group, they have a legitimate right to complain if one type of non-profit gets to operate under different rules than the rest.

shrewsbury
05-28-2014, 02:56 PM
as long as there is a positive moral change in a culture, I have no issue with someone using religion to obtain it.

seal006
05-28-2014, 03:42 PM
Huh? For starters, I'm not the one complaining. As for this group, they have a legitimate right to complain if one type of non-profit gets to operate under different rules than the rest.

Churches are not a typical non-profit like the Atheist claim to be. They are a RELIGION. Which is why their complaint has no merit. By wanting equal comparison as a non-profit, Atheist are attempting to influence the rest of the world of the notion that there is no God. Which is ONE REASON why I stated that they ARE a religion as well.

Wanting equal treatment for what they themselves feel is a difference in apples to oranges. You cannot have it both ways.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 07:06 PM
Churches are not a typical non-profit like the Atheist claim to be. They are a RELIGION. Which is why their complaint has no merit. By wanting equal comparison as a non-profit, Atheist are attempting to influence the rest of the world of the notion that there is no God. Which is ONE REASON why I stated that they ARE a religion as well.

Wanting equal treatment for what they themselves feel is a difference in apples to oranges. You cannot have it both ways.

"Non-profit" is a business term that applies across the spectrum to any business/organization that is not in the business of making a profit. The terminology has nothing to do with the actual business/service being performed. The only thing "not typical" about churches is they are granted special status because of our antiquated thinking. They want equal treatment because they are both NON-PROFITS, not because they both involve God. How can you not grasp that?

seal006
05-28-2014, 07:21 PM
"Non-profit" is a business term that applies across the spectrum to any business/organization that is not in the business of making a profit. The terminology has nothing to do with the actual business/service being performed. The only thing "not typical" about churches is they are granted special status because of our antiquated thinking. They want equal treatment because they are both NON-PROFITS, not because they both involve God. How can you not grasp that?


LOL, I do understand you, I JUST THINK YOUR WRONG, and oh by the way, so does the US government.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 07:47 PM
LOL, I do understand you, I JUST THINK YOUR WRONG, and oh by the way, so does the US government.

If you understand me. What did I say that is inaccurate?

seal006
05-28-2014, 07:59 PM
If you understand me. What did I say that is inaccurate?

I said you were wrong, not inaccurate. Wrong and inaccurate are completely different things here. I understand your feelings in the matter. I find your feelings in this matter as wrong.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 08:19 PM
I said you were wrong, not inaccurate. Wrong and inaccurate are completely different things here. I understand your feelings in the matter. I find your feelings in this matter as wrong.

Wrong in what way?

seal006
05-28-2014, 08:46 PM
Wrong in what way?
I have already explained all of that. Bottomline is your feelings that churches should not be afforded the benefit of not disclosing contributors. Churches are associated with religion. Despite how you feel, our country was founded on religion. Religious groups will always be treated seperately than non-religious groups.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 08:56 PM
I have already explained all of that. Bottomline is your feelings that churches should not be afforded the benefit of not disclosing contributors. Churches are associated with religion. Despite how you feel, our country was founded on religion. Religious groups will always be treated seperately than non-religious groups.

So you believe churches should get preferential treatment? And I'm wrong for disagreeing? And religious people wonder why atheists are so adamant against religion? I guess it's self-explanatory.

seal006
05-28-2014, 09:52 PM
So you believe churches should get preferential treatment? And I'm wrong for disagreeing? And religious people wonder why atheists are so adamant against religion? I guess it's self-explanatory.
Why the hell do you even care? You are in Canada. The US is founded on religion not Atheism. Religion is at the core of the vast majority of the residents of this country, not Atheism.

habsheaven
05-28-2014, 10:06 PM
Why the hell do you even care? You are in Canada. The US is founded on religion not Atheism. Religion is at the core of the vast majority of the residents of this country, not Atheism.

Newsflash!!! Canada has religion, government and atheism also. Right is Right. Wrong is Wrong. Borders are irrelevant.

Based on the bolded statements, I guess you believe that all laws giving preferential treatment in other religiously founded countries is right too. Good to know. Gotta love how christians think!!

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 01:54 AM
Why the hell do you even care? You are in Canada. The US is founded on religion not Atheism. Religion is at the core of the vast majority of the residents of this country, not Atheism.

The US is founded on freedom and nothing else. Never forget that.

JustAlex
05-29-2014, 02:33 AM
alex, a true atheist is just someone who does not believe in god, it is not anti religious.
I agree.

The fact that I'm anti-religion has nothing to do with being an atheist....the two are separate.


They could care less about religion, so there is no need to attack someone else's beliefs.
I think you mean "couldn't care less".....either way, yes Shrew some atheists don't care about religion, they don't like to talk about it one bit and are just not interested at all.

Others (such as myself) DO care, and like to talk about it.

As for attacking beliefs, it is MY sincere belief that beliefs in general SHOULD be scrutinized and put to the test, especially beliefs that have yet to be substantiated.

The fact that someone holds a certain belief does not exclude said belief from criticism and scrutiny when another person finds flaws with said beliefs.

You and anyone here is free to criticize and scrutinize any and ALL beliefs I might share with you....I welcome it.

JustAlex
05-29-2014, 02:44 AM
And, NEWSFLASH!!!!!!! These are all from the Old Testament. This is all from a time BEFORE Jesus Christ. The teachings of Christ, and his dying for our sins is what CHRISTIANITY is founded on. Hence the name, CHRISTianity.

OK, then why doesn't CHRISTianity do away with the OT altogether?

I would actually give christianity so much credit if they actually did something like that.


And BTW, I love the fact that you're saying that I'm taking the verses out of context....what exactly is the context then?

Slavery is OK by the Bible an NO they are not POWs....they are SLAVES.

Rape IS OK as well....even god gives the OK for his armies to "take the women" from the cities they destroy....and if you don't believe me read it for yourself!

Judges 21:10-24 NLT

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

And this gem: Deuteronomy 20:10-14

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."

The "Spoils" of war...getting to "Keep" all the women, obviously to be raped, what else would these barbaric people do with them?

And make no mistake....the fact that those times were "different" does not mean that having slaves, killing innocent people, and raping women was fine...it wasn't.

It doesn't matter if this is war....the act of raping anyone under any circumstance is barbaric, it is disgraceful, and most importantly of all, it is IMMORAL.

As an atheist I know what is right and wrong, I don't need a book to tell me what is right and wrong.....

killing an innocent person is wrong.

Having a slave (under any circumstance) is wrong.

Raping a woman or man (again, under any circumstance) is wrong.

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 02:51 AM
"I could care less" is accepted as an American colloquial version of "I couldn't care less."

====* The More You Know

seal006
05-29-2014, 05:38 AM
OK, then why doesn't CHRISTianity do away with the OT altogether?

I would actually give christianity so much credit if they actually did something like that.


And BTW, I love the fact that you're saying that I'm taking the verses out of context....what exactly is the context then?


So do away with the history books, and accounts of what things used to be like? Do not have any documentation that one could point to and say, "do not do things like they once did?"

And again, the scriptures in the Bible were written a long time ago, and the translations were not 100% accurate in the King James version in which was used by the other translations later. Many words and meanings have been shown to be wrong.

seal006
05-29-2014, 05:43 AM
The US is founded on freedom and nothing else. Never forget that.

The original colonist from which was the foundation for this country were seeking religious freedom.

mrveggieman
05-29-2014, 08:59 AM
the us is founded on freedom and nothing else. Never forget that.

church!!

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 11:53 AM
The original colonist from which was the foundation for this country were seeking religious freedom.

Exactly.

Not Christian freedom, but religious.
Not religion, but freedom.

shrewsbury
05-29-2014, 02:53 PM
freedom that was inspired by religion

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 03:51 PM
freedom that was inspired by religion

Not everything is made good by being inspired by religion.

Did you see Passion of the Christ? Terrible.

shrewsbury
05-29-2014, 04:29 PM
never said it was good or bad, said it was inspired by.

seal006
05-29-2014, 05:52 PM
Exactly.

Not Christian freedom, but religious.
Not religion, but freedom.

I have not made Christianity about any of this. I am not the one that has tried quoting the Bible. This whole thread is about it not being fair for religious groups to be treated differently from those that fight like hell not to be included with them. I am unsure how you could want that, or expect that as the minority, by choice, you would think that the government would cave upon your demand.

habsheaven
05-29-2014, 06:29 PM
I have not made Christianity about any of this. I am not the one that has tried quoting the Bible. This whole thread is about it not being fair for religious groups to be treated differently from those that fight like hell not to be included with them. I am unsure how you could want that, or expect that as the minority, by choice, you would think that the government would cave upon your demand.

You are the one that excused the preferential treatment because the country is mostly christian. And again the bolded part is wrong. It should read; "other non-profits.

Btw, you never did bother to respond when I implied you are okay with Middle Eastern countries imposing unfair laws on their citizenry because they are founded on the Islamic religion. I wonder why?

seal006
05-29-2014, 06:43 PM
You are the one that excused the preferential treatment because the country is mostly christian. And again the bolded part is wrong. It should read; "other non-profits.

Btw, you never did bother to respond when I implied you are okay with Middle Eastern countries imposing unfair laws on their citizenry because they are founded on the Islamic religion. I wonder why?

No, I never said Christianity. Religion is the core of this argument. Heck Satanist are a religion as well and deserve whatever than can receive as well. Religious freedom is the foundation of the country. You and others are adament that Atheism is not a religion. And the part that is in bold IS correct. I meant Atheist. They are the ones that took this to court not the NAACP or the Boy Scouts or even my son's Lacrosse team.. It was the Atheist that took this fight to the courts.

As far as not answering about the middle East, well I do not live there. I am not Islamic. How can I answer correctly. During this thread you have attacked me at every turn. Others have tried to twist my beliefs into something to use against me. I have done none of that to any of you. Just answered your questions. You have yet to present any facts to support your opinion that the Atheist should have won this court battle. This thread has over 100 responses, and we still have heard nothing valid from the losing side.

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 07:04 PM
I have not made Christianity about any of this. I am not the one that has tried quoting the Bible. This whole thread is about it not being fair for religious groups to be treated differently from those that fight like hell not to be included with them. I am unsure how you could want that, or expect that as the minority, by choice, you would think that the government would cave upon your demand.

I don't know how you can think founding a country on religious freedom means treating religion differently from the free citizens it was also created for.

Who cares if it's the minority. Fair is fair.

gsj68
05-29-2014, 07:19 PM
isnt athiesm reliant on theism just to exist? where theism isnt reliant on atheism to exist

so they shouldnt be under the same classification?

seal006
05-29-2014, 07:39 PM
I don't know how you can think founding a country on religious freedom means treating religion differently from the free citizens it was also created for.

Who cares if it's the minority. Fair is fair.

Who cares you ask? The majority cares. Atheism is a choice, just as believing in a god. More folks believe there is a god, some more than one god. Religion rules. That is just a fact. You think this is not being fair. When I feel it would not be fair for the majority being made to change something just because the minority feels it is not fair. If most of us want to wear blue shirts, yet you and a small percentage want to wear red shirts, we should not all have to start wearing red shirts just because you said it's not fair.

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 07:56 PM
Calling "religion rules" a fact is hilarious.

Believe what you want, but don't call it fact.

seal006
05-29-2014, 08:44 PM
The fact is that when there is a conflict here in the US that has a religious group against a non-religious group, the religious group wins a VAST majority of the time.

runningthis15
05-29-2014, 09:22 PM
athiesm is not a religion in order to be one you have to belive in something higher then man they do not there fore they are not a religous group aand do not deserve the same non profit or tax exempt that the church and other religeons get from this great country read your money it says in god we trust in the pledge one nation under god anthiest are a group trying to make trouble and get attention and this is from a guy who is not religouse at all have not been to church in 20 years these groups do stuff like this to get there name in the news and cause problems for other people ask them if a family need help with food or clothing or anything if they will help the answer is no then they do not deserve the same respects we give out other religions

habsheaven
05-29-2014, 10:07 PM
No, I never said Christianity. Religion is the core of this argument. Heck Satanist are a religion as well and deserve whatever than can receive as well. Religious freedom is the foundation of the country. You and others are adament that Atheism is not a religion. And the part that is in bold IS correct. I meant Atheist. They are the ones that took this to court not the NAACP or the Boy Scouts or even my son's Lacrosse team.. It was the Atheist that took this fight to the courts.

As far as not answering about the middle East, well I do not live there. I am not Islamic. How can I answer correctly. During this thread you have attacked me at every turn. Others have tried to twist my beliefs into something to use against me. I have done none of that to any of you. Just answered your questions. You have yet to present any facts to support your opinion that the Atheist should have won this court battle. This thread has over 100 responses, and we still have heard nothing valid from the losing side.

First, you brought up Christianity in post #20, post #59 and all the other posts where you claim the US was founded on religion. We all know what religion you are referring to.

Second, your answer regarding the Middle East is a cope out. You do not have to live over there to understand that denying women from driving (for example) is WRONG. It doesn't take a deep understanding of the country, religion or culture. Total cope out, to avoid the point being made.

Third, no one is attacking you. Grow a thicker skin.

Finally, I have spent this whole thread explaining why this Atheist group is right in complaining that churches (non-profits) should be treated like every other non-profit. The only defense you presented to that was that churches somehow deserve special treatment because the country was founded on religion. I pointed out the problem with that thinking by offering the Middle Eastern countries as an example and you avoid answering it.

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 10:12 PM
The fact is that when there is a conflict here in the US that has a religious group against a non-religious group, the religious group wins a VAST majority of the time.

That does not mean religion rules. The fact conflicts exist disproves religion's "rule".

habsheaven
05-29-2014, 10:14 PM
Who cares you ask? The majority cares. Atheism is a choice, just as believing in a god. More folks believe there is a god, some more than one god. Religion rules. That is just a fact. You think this is not being fair. When I feel it would not be fair for the majority being made to change something just because the minority feels it is not fair. If most of us want to wear blue shirts, yet you and a small percentage want to wear red shirts, we should not all have to start wearing red shirts just because you said it's not fair.

No, you should all be allowed to wear whatever colour shirt you want. That would be fair and right. As I said in the other post; you think it's fair that women can't drive in Saudi Arabia because the government founded on religion says so?

habsheaven
05-29-2014, 10:15 PM
The fact is that when there is a conflict here in the US that has a religious group against a non-religious group, the religious group wins a VAST majority of the time.

So that makes it right?

runningthis15
05-29-2014, 10:19 PM
First, you brought up Christianity in post #20, post #59 and all the other posts where you claim the US was founded on religion. We all know what religion you are referring to.

Second, your answer regarding the Middle East is a cope out. You do not have to live over there to understand that denying women from driving (for example) is WRONG. It doesn't take a deep understanding of the country, religion or culture. Total cope out, to avoid the point being made.

Third, no one is attacking you. Grow a thicker skin.

Finally, I have spent this whole thread explaining why this Atheist group is right in complaining that churches (non-profits) should be treated like every other non-profit. The only defense you presented to that was that churches somehow deserve special treatment because the country was founded on religion. I pointed out the problem with that thinking by offering the Middle Eastern countries as an example and you avoid answering it.
they are not a religouse group and do not deserve it they have no fight in the court

habsheaven
05-29-2014, 10:51 PM
they are not a religouse group and do not deserve it they have no fight in the court

I know they are not a religious group. They are a NON-PROFIT group, just like the Churches that are NON-PROFIT groups. They just want to be treated equally. It's not that hard to comprehend.

runningthis15
05-29-2014, 11:18 PM
I know they are not a religious group. They are a NON-PROFIT group, just like the Churches that are NON-PROFIT groups. They just want to be treated equally. It's not that hard to comprehend.
when they help familys in need then they can get non profit this is a big reason for churches me non profit and getting tax exempt they dont you need to look at the things the church does that this group does not it is not just they get the titles for nothing they do things that are good and this is why

Wickabee
05-29-2014, 11:23 PM
Churches may he charitable, but there is No way they are not for profit.

runningthis15
05-30-2014, 12:02 AM
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Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Organizational-Test-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) and operated (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Operational-Test-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) exclusively for exempt purposes (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exempt-Purposes-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Inurement-Private-Benefit-Charitable-Organizations) to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Political-and-Lobbying-Activities), i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Substantiating-Charitable-Contributions) in accordance with Code section 170.
The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Inurement-Private-Benefit-Charitable-Organizations), and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Intermediate-Sanctions-Excess-Benefit-Transactions) with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Intermediate-Sanctions) may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

seal006
05-30-2014, 05:57 AM
First, you brought up Christianity in post #20, post #59 and all the other posts where you claim the US was founded on religion. We all know what religion you are referring to.

Second, your answer regarding the Middle East is a cope out. You do not have to live over there to understand that denying women from driving (for example) is WRONG. It doesn't take a deep understanding of the country, religion or culture. Total cope out, to avoid the point being made.

Third, no one is attacking you. Grow a thicker skin.

Finally, I have spent this whole thread explaining why this Atheist group is right in complaining that churches (non-profits) should be treated like every other non-profit. The only defense you presented to that was that churches somehow deserve special treatment because the country was founded on religion. I pointed out the problem with that thinking by offering the Middle Eastern countries as an example and you avoid answering it.
Again here you are making two issues out of one. Yes, Christianity is what the nation was founded on, but Christianity is part of the religious groups category. Your fighting that Christians are the ones getting special treatment, when in fact it is ALL religious groups. It just so happens that Christianity makes up a majority of the religious groups in this country.

This is something you will never understand. I am stepping away from this thread, because quite frankly it is no longer about the issue in the OP. It has somehow evolved into what is in the Bible and the Middle East. None of which is about the court battle.

habsheaven
05-30-2014, 08:57 AM
when they help familys in need then they can get non profit this is a big reason for churches me non profit and getting tax exempt they dont you need to look at the things the church does that this group does not it is not just they get the titles for nothing they do things that are good and this is why

There are 1000's of NON-PROFIT groups that do good. They don't get the exemption that the churches do. Doing "good" is not a factor in the decision making, or all those other groups that "do good" would get the exemption too.

habsheaven
05-30-2014, 08:59 AM
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Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations

To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Organizational-Test-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) and operated (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Operational-Test-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) exclusively for exempt purposes (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Exempt-Purposes-Internal-Revenue-Code-Section-501%28c%29%283%29) set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Inurement-Private-Benefit-Charitable-Organizations) to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Political-and-Lobbying-Activities), i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Substantiating-Charitable-Contributions) in accordance with Code section 170.
The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Inurement-Private-Benefit-Charitable-Organizations), and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Intermediate-Sanctions-Excess-Benefit-Transactions) with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax (http://www.irs.gov/Charities-&-Non-Profits/Charitable-Organizations/Intermediate-Sanctions) may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Are you saying that the church does not do the bolded part?

habsheaven
05-30-2014, 09:05 AM
Again here you are making two issues out of one. Yes, Christianity is what the nation was founded on, but Christianity is part of the religious groups category. Your fighting that Christians are the ones getting special treatment, when in fact it is ALL religious groups. It just so happens that Christianity makes up a majority of the religious groups in this country.

This is something you will never understand. I am stepping away from this thread, because quite frankly it is no longer about the issue in the OP. It has somehow evolved into what is in the Bible and the Middle East. None of which is about the court battle.

I am arguing no such thing. I brought up the Christianity bit because you accused us of raising it as an issue when you in fact did. The Middle East portion of this thread was a response to you defending the court decision because the country was founded on religion and therefore religion should get special treatment. That's what you implied. I brought up the Middle East to prove that your reasoning is not sound.

Yes, it is probably better if you stop replying in this thread because you fail to understand the discussion.

mrveggieman
05-30-2014, 09:45 AM
Churches may he charitable, but there is No way they are not for profit.

There is one preacher who not only had a church on his campus but a whole bunch of other businesses including a mcdonalds. That's right teach your followers to live a good clean lifestyle ask them for donations then turn around and make more money off them selling them mcdonalds food, making them sick so they can give you more donations when they ask for you to pray for them.

I am not against anyone going to church or doing their thing but I going to call a hustler when I see one.

runningthis15
05-30-2014, 10:03 PM
Are you saying that the church does not do the bolded part?

that was like that

habsheaven
05-30-2014, 11:33 PM
that was like that

Four words that make absolutely no sense to me?