Pack and Box Searching

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Originally Posted by xnamyeknomx

thats a great question, because IMO if the packs are being opened (and not purchased) then thats considered stealing, but if you are just feeling them, well then you really have to just live by your own convictions.

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I agree, but I like to play devil's advocate.... What if I go to the local Wal-Mart and I open say a pack of tools to make sure that it has all the tools it is supposed to have. Is that stealing? It's just making sure that I get what I pay for. Not that I suport this with cards, but I'm just throwing it out there. Someone will say there is no difference, they will buy the pack of cards IF it has what it is "supposed" to have. :sign0020:

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Originally Posted by MatsSundin13Rocks

Don't need to open them to pack search just feel them. Why do you think Upper Deck bothers with spacers? To try and stop pack searching but still buy a box and get a scale and you'd easily be able to pack search most products. I haven't tried the scale but I might buy a box of something like Artifacts and do it.

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Easy sunshine. I understand how people do it. I'm asking the thread starter how HE does it.

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Originally Posted by chajones

I agree, but I like to play devil's advocate.... What if I go to the local Wal-Mart and I open say a pack of tools to make sure that it has all the tools it is supposed to have. Is that stealing? It's just making sure that I get what I pay for. Not that I suport this with cards, but I'm just throwing it out there. Someone will say there is no difference, they will buy the pack of cards IF it has what it is "supposed" to have. :sign0020:



Easy sunshine. I understand how people do it. I'm asking the thread starter how HE does it.

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Well opening packs is completely wrong because then you are stealing. You open the packs and take out the hits then leave without paying and that is stealing.

We don't need to go into how to pack search, we don't advocate that type of discussion. Keep on topic.

I consider pack searching equivalent to steroid use...it's giving yourself an unfair advantage over those that play by the rules. And it's the ones that play by the rules that suffer because of it. It's all about integrity...

One of the guys I work with collects basketball cards. He rarely ever buys packs, only sticks to singles.

There is one brand that puts the hot packs in the same spot every single time no matter what, so when he does get some of that specific type he's always able to get something good.

When I go to Target to look at cards, you can tell someone ALWAYS has dug through them because all the packs are turned on their sides. I would venture to say most people take packs from the bottom of boxes because generally that's where the hot cards are.

I never have any luck when it comes to those types of things, my pack pulling and box opening is well below even average. lol.

I bought six packs of football cards this weekend and didn't even pull a player from the 49ers. I would have been happy with a base or a rookie!

I love opening boxes and packs but have strayed away from it because of the money is more than I'd like to spend on something that I won't get anything good from. (Ex. $100 box of Ultimate collection, pulled a Donnie Avery jersey/Auto. The jersey was one color and the card won't sell for more than $8 on EBAY. lol)

If someone knows where the cards are, then I guess more power to them, I think most companies put the blank fillers in to prevent that and a good portion of people are just lucky when it comes to picking.

My advice, buy singles. lol

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Originally Posted by OnePimpTiger

I consider pack searching equivalent to steroid use...it's giving yourself an unfair advantage over those that play by the rules. And it's the ones that play by the rules that suffer because of it. It's all about integrity...

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I don't see any rule book for buying packs of hockey cards????? There is a rule book for playing baseball and steroids are an illegal substance anway and banned in all sports and by law. Pack searching isn't illegal, isn't breaking any laws, and doesn't affect my integrity because I'm not doing anything wrong. Every single person can pack search because it is easy. The only reason people don't is they don't know how or they are on some high and mighty horse about pack searching being wrong and lacking integrity. Upper Deck may want to aviod people pack searching so they use spacers and whatever but people still find ways to do it because it isn't illegal. If you want to avoid pack search boxes just buy full boxes or do the pack searching yourself.

If you knew a Tin of the Cup had a Crosby Auto/Patch Rookie /99 and another Tin of the Cup had a nobody you'd pick the tin with the Crosby for sure. If there was a way to tell legally without busting the seal on the box you'd pick the box with the Crosby. Of course with The Cup I'd say it isn't possible to do but the question is hypothetical anyway.

I won't even buy any single cards from stores because of pack searchers. I ran into one and said something about it. Now I'll never buy a single pack from any of the stores in my area except the hobby store that has all the boxes behind the counter. I always thought the idea was retarded. Hey have fun with your Neifi Perez bat card, that will move for a lot on ebay. Its retail, you usually don't get much out of it, but its people that come in, take all the hits, then its a dead box. Like playing the lotto, gaining an advantage. Kind of defeats the purpose of pulling something for fun.

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Originally Posted by jwmaryvillecrg

Why does it make people so angry when others find out ways to pack and box search to guarantee good cards? I personally don't think it is a big deal, but I understand that other people get extremely mad about this and I want to hear the reasons why.

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The reason of why has to do with the gambling nature of opening wax. Lottery systems work in the same fashion. You put up money for a chance to get something back of more value. Pack searching is akin to fixing the lottery. You expect the payout to be such and such, but because of pack searchers, the actual payout is much less. Asking why people would be mad is like saying, "why do you feel angry when you're being cheated?"

If the stated odds are false, then people are giving up their money with much less potential return than they could get back if the system was fair.

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Originally Posted by themanishere

I just think it is funny how, in a hobby where chance and luck play an almost central role, people want to keep it fair. Fairness has nothing to do with luck and chance of packs/boxes; in fact, the concept of fairness is inapplicable. And I don't buy the argument that buying the packs/boxes we think has a hit ruins the chances for others. First come, first serve would fall under the same argument because it only applies to hindsight. Maybe someone didn't pack search, but they got the hit.

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I think you're mistaking 'fairness' for 'odds'. Fairness would be that no matter the order of people getting their packs, they all have an equal chance at getting the hit. For example, let's say 20 people line up and grab a pack from a box. Well they all have an equal chance at the hit.

Now, we add a pack searcher who knows how to pick the hit. Anyone who picks after the pack searcher has a lesser chance than normal to get a hit card. So, for those people, is it really 'fair' when compared to earlier when no pack searcher was present?

BTW, I agree that the "but think of the children!" rallying cry is a stupid one. Kids are the future of collecting (they're the future of everything right, we all grow old and die, so someone has to take over). But don't underestimate the shrewdness of kids. They may not notice for a few months, but when they get nothing but base at the retail store and they have dreams of collecting, are they more apt to leave the hobby or stick with it? And when they stick with it who will they turn into? Seeing that pack searchers get their hits from the mall, are they going to redouble their efforts in an ethical manner, or will they become like the pack searcher? Its not just the effect of the pack searching, but the possibility for emulation.

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Originally Posted by chajones

I agree, but I like to play devil's advocate.... What if I go to the local Wal-Mart and I open say a pack of tools to make sure that it has all the tools it is supposed to have. Is that stealing? It's just making sure that I get what I pay for. Not that I suport this with cards, but I'm just throwing it out there. Someone will say there is no difference, they will buy the pack of cards IF it has what it is "supposed" to have. :sign0020:

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Since you wanted to play Devil's, I'll jump in. With a tool box, the contents of the box are described, like one hammer, one screwdriver, etc. If you open it and one's missing, then that's an issue of course. But for wax, the pack often states that you are buying an unknown and what's inside COULD be anything. A better example would be scratch tickets. Do they let you scratch the ticket before you buy it to see if its a winner? Of course not. But would you buy them if you know that someone else could pick out the winners before you?

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Originally Posted by MatsSundin13Rocks

I don't see any rule book for buying packs of hockey cards????? There is a rule book for playing baseball and steroids are an illegal substance anway and banned in all sports and by law. Pack searching isn't illegal, isn't breaking any laws, and doesn't affect my integrity because I'm not doing anything wrong. Every single person can pack search because it is easy. The only reason people don't is they don't know how or they are on some high and mighty horse about pack searching being wrong and lacking integrity.

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You don't see a rule because a lot of this has to do with ethics and morality. There may not be any laws against it (now?), and while it may not affect YOUR integrity, that's simply because you don't care about this issue. It may affect other people's perception of your integrity though. Don't worry though, there's no high horse here saying you should or shouldn't do it. That's a personal choice.

When you pack search, you making the situation worse for anyone who buys packs after you. It a question about how much you care for your fellow collector. In an ideal world, everyone cares for themselves, but also for the person next to them, right? You feed the hungry, house the homeless, care for the sick and give an equal chance to your fellow collector to pull a hit from that box.

Let's be honest though, its not a perfect world. People throw out half a McD's burger, ignore the guy on the street, rail at school property taxes when they have no kids and pack searchers at Wal-mart spend hours feeling up loose packs. Who gets hurt? Everyone and no one.

No one gets hurt because people still want to believe that the stated odds are good and so they are still purchased. As for those people who are naive enough to buy packs after they've been searched? Well, I don't know them anyways, so its not like I'm hurting someone I know.

It also hurts everyone because slowly, and you can see this in the forums and from people you talk to, people are buying less loose wax and moving toward singles on the secondary market. The card companies see less wax sales (at least for retail)... and... what do they do? I don't know, but we're in a state of flux right now IMO. I can only see what happened in the 90's. Massive over-production coupled + back-door shenanigans = market collapse. I'm not saying that pack searchers are the cause of the next crash, but they do add to the disillusionment of collectors. We all know what happens when the "bubble bursts". There's no one thing that does it, but when you add up all the little things, it just becomes overwhelming.

Cheers to all.
reoddai

I think it is wrong to pack search, you are basically cheating everyone else out of a hit, and if you get caught pack searching at retail stores, i guarntee your getting kicked out and they wont want you coming back anymore, especially on this site, packsearching is extremely fround upon and i wont deal with packsearchers because in my opinion they help destroy the hobby..

Why cant you open packs just by picking one up like everyone else? are you above that? Nobody is, and in a perfect world everyone wouldnt search, but in the USA everybody is out there it seems to get the biggest and best thing even when that means they are cheating...

There is a guy who pack searches at retail places and always sells the stuff he gets off to my boss (i work at a card store) He never makes his money back and is $15,000 in debt on his credit card...thats a retail packsearcher for ya

my favorite thing to do is grab the stack that the pack searcher has set aside and walk away.

On a side note, we had a pack searcher at a neighbor hood target. He would run his nail along the pack because he said he could then tell where the card was. Unfortunately for him he was putting a nail scratch in one of the cards in every pack. I notified security and the manager and he was forced to buy a couple hundred dollars in pack or have the police called. Target also put up a sign no pack searching and no scales(although I dont understand who would bring a scale in)