Top Shelf: Why the Maple Leafs can make the playoffs

[gretzky99]

Here's my problem with that reasoning. Everyone is up-at-arms if Kaberle doesn't re-sign, yet everyone doesn't care if Giggy goes and the Leafs get nothing in return for him. Kaberle not resigning would be great because we can re-sign Schenn and Gunnarsson. Kaberle staying wouldn't be a bad deal either. So, it's still a win-win for the Leafs here.

there's a huge difference between giguere and kaberle. first off, giguere makes $7M so no one would trade for that. but kaberle is very affordable at $4.25M but he's only got one year left on the deal. also, the Leafs have 8 d-men under contract so it doesn't make sense for them to keep Kaberle. they signed lebda and i'm sure they want to play gunnarsson.

my point is Burke is trying to get too much. if he settled for a decent prospect and a first round pick he could probably get that. then they replace the pick they traded away for kessel and they get a prospect plus they can use the money to re-sign Schenn and Gunnarsson.

but keeping Kaberle means they may be a bit better but not really do any damage. then you lose him for nothing and Gunnarsson doesn't get the minutes he should get because Kaberle gets them all.

i understand what Burke is doing trying to get as much as he can for Kaberle, but to not trade him is not smart. get what you can, especially that first round pick, and play Gunnarsson because they aren't ready to compete just yet. play the kids, give them some experience and make a playoff run in 11-12.

[mr ozzie]

there's a huge difference between giguere and kaberle. first off, giguere makes $7M so no one would trade for that. but kaberle is very affordable at $4.25M but he's only got one year left on the deal. also, the Leafs have 8 d-men under contract so it doesn't make sense for them to keep Kaberle. they signed lebda and i'm sure they want to play gunnarsson.

my point is Burke is trying to get too much. if he settled for a decent prospect and a first round pick he could probably get that. then they replace the pick they traded away for kessel and they get a prospect plus they can use the money to re-sign Schenn and Gunnarsson.

but keeping Kaberle means they may be a bit better but not really do any damage. then you lose him for nothing and Gunnarsson doesn't get the minutes he should get because Kaberle gets them all.

i understand what Burke is doing trying to get as much as he can for Kaberle, but to not trade him is not smart. get what you can, especially that first round pick, and play Gunnarsson because they aren't ready to compete just yet. play the kids, give them some experience and make a playoff run in 11-12.

See, you're falling in the JFJ trap that he fell into that led his buttocks out the front door. You're saying to get at least something out of Kaberle. You realize this will work against Burke in gaining any sort of leverage on the bargaining table. If he shows any sign of desperation, then other teams will not offer what Burke really wants.

And regarding Giggy vs. Kaberle. The only difference between the two is that JS is making 3mil more. So, let's look at it this way then. JS and Kaberle are both entering their final year of their contract. Both have NTCs. Both are over 30, around 1-2 years apart. JS=7mil and we all agree that he ain't getting that much again....at best maybe 4mil per. Kaberle=4.25mil and could easily get 4.5, maybe 5mil per. So, maybe Burke shouldn't let JS walk away so easily also.

The last thing the Burke should do is trade away Kaberle for a sack of potatoes. Remember, the sack of potatoes may have longer term contracts - just look at the Hawks and how hamstrung they are with cap issues. Kaberle staying for the year is a good thing, and the Leafs will get 4.25mil cap space if he walks next year. We're actually getting something in return after all.

PS: You add JS' 7mil to the 4.25mil = 11.25mil and you're talking about some serious cap space for a VERY young team that just got younger by removing JS and Tomas. Got to look at the bigger picture sometimes.

[gretzky99]

See, you're falling in the JFJ trap that he fell into that led his buttocks out the front door. You're saying to get at least something out of Kaberle. You realize this will work against Burke in gaining any sort of leverage on the bargaining table. If he shows any sign of desperation, then other teams will not offer what Burke really wants.

And regarding Giggy vs. Kaberle. The only difference between the two is that JS is making 3mil more. So, let's look at it this way then. JS and Kaberle are both entering their final year of their contract. Both have NTCs. Both are over 30, around 1-2 years apart. JS=7mil and we all agree that he ain't getting that much again....at best maybe 4mil per. Kaberle=4.25mil and could easily get 4.5, maybe 5mil per. So, maybe Burke shouldn't let JS walk away so easily also.

The last thing the Burke should do is trade away Kaberle for a sack of potatoes. Remember, the sack of potatoes may have longer term contracts - just look at the Hawks and how hamstrung they are with cap issues. Kaberle staying for the year is a good thing, and the Leafs will get 4.25mil cap space if he walks next year. We're actually getting something in return after all.

PS: You add JS' 7mil to the 4.25mil = 11.25mil and you're talking about some serious cap space for a VERY young team that just got younger by removing JS and Tomas. Got to look at the bigger picture sometimes.

i agree with you - it makes no sense to trade Kaberle for someone with a bad contract. Burke did that last year with Giguere and Phaneuf.

i'm saying he shouldn't just hold out for a top 6 player as i don't think he'll get that. but i do think it's worth dealing Kaberle if he can get a quality prospect that has top 6 potential and a high draft pick. that would give them both cap flexibility plus replace the Kessel pick plus give them another asset up front that can turn into a top 6 player.

is that idea? no. ideally, Burke would like to get someone like Claude Giroux who has top 6 talent and a great contract. problem is that he's not getting that.
best he can hope for is someone like Ryan Malone who has top 6 talent but also comes with a hefty contract. is that really better than a quality prospect and a high pick? i don't think so - maybe Burke does.

so not trading Kaberle means you don't play Gunnarsson and you get nothing for him but his cap space when he leaves.
trading Kaberle for a pick + prospect means you still get the cap space + you get two assets. that's better, no?

[davescards]

Burke is trying to fix the issues left from previous GM's. In my opinion, the Leafs shouldn't even be talking playoffs. Burke has this team going in the right direction, but Tomas Kaberle is not in that picture... He can't be... And here's why:

Aging player, even though he's still a top performer. You will have to get a Top 6 forward for him, that's a key, but to get someone to help right now, you might as well keep Kaberle. In my opinion, he should be given away to the highest bidder who is offering Draft Picks and Prospects. He's good enough to get those things, and there are teams in the league that will give their best prospects for a guy like Kaberle.

Jeff Finger should be the one discussed here and not Kaberle. Finger is a waste of money and should either be bought out or buried in the Minors, and it has to happen now.

Guigere, depending on what he wants to do with his career, I'd keep him. There's no harder working player on the Leafs right now than this dude, and its someone you can use to help train The Monster.

I think the Leafs are headed in the right direction, but they have to lose Kaberle, Finger, and bring back draft picks and prospects.

Do they have a team right now that can make the playoffs? No... Should they? No.

In two years time will they have a team that will make the playoffs? They sure will...

I heard they're looking for a Top 1 forward, and names that have popped up on sites that I've seen, are the likes of Zach Parise and Bobby Ryan. If they can get one of these bodies before the all star break this year, it might put them over the top, but I still doubt it.

[steen101984]

So when I say I don't think that the Leafs will make the playoffs, you talk about the Kings? It's not like the Leafs have won on since the Kings joined the league. You guys won when there was drastically less teams. Gratz, the Kings have never won one. And you want constructive comments? Here:

The Leafs offense sucks. Their D is definitely solid but with that weak of an offense, they will NOT make the playoffs. Hence my last post.

Last year they were 25th in gf. In last in goals for was the bruins who made the playoffs. In 29th were the flames who had 90 points. Tied with us were the canadiens who went to the east final. In 24th .01 goals ahead of us were the coyotes and guess what they made the playoffs too.

Our problem was being 29th in goals against. Now with dion and a full year of komi and with beauch hopefully settling in that should go down. Not to even mention having giguere instead of vesa.

The biggest problem was our terrible start. Vesa and Joey mac had alot to do with that. If we go 3-4-1 instead of 0-7-1 we finish 11th in the east.

I think that we may be a playoff team. We will be harder to play against on offense with colby and versteeg coming in. We will likely come anywhere from 7-11 right now maybe higher if we get a decent return for kabby.

[steen101984]

Burke is trying to fix the issues left from previous GM's. In my opinion, the Leafs shouldn't even be talking playoffs. Burke has this team going in the right direction, but Tomas Kaberle is not in that picture... He can't be... And here's why:

Aging player, even though he's still a top performer. You will have to get a Top 6 forward for him, that's a key, but to get someone to help right now, you might as well keep Kaberle. In my opinion, he should be given away to the highest bidder who is offering Draft Picks and Prospects. He's good enough to get those things, and there are teams in the league that will give their best prospects for a guy like Kaberle.

Jeff Finger should be the one discussed here and not Kaberle. Finger is a waste of money and should either be bought out or buried in the Minors, and it has to happen now.

Guigere, depending on what he wants to do with his career, I'd keep him. There's no harder working player on the Leafs right now than this dude, and its someone you can use to help train The Monster.

I think the Leafs are headed in the right direction, but they have to lose Kaberle, Finger, and bring back draft picks and prospects.

Do they have a team right now that can make the playoffs? No... Should they? No.

In two years time will they have a team that will make the playoffs? They sure will...

I heard they're looking for a Top 1 forward, and names that have popped up on sites that I've seen, are the likes of Zach Parise and Bobby Ryan. If they can get one of these bodies before the all star break this year, it might put them over the top, but I still doubt it.

For someone who isnt a leaf fan you are very knowledable and imo very accurate. Nice post.

[steen101984]

See, you're falling in the JFJ trap that he fell into that led his buttocks out the front door. You're saying to get at least something out of Kaberle. You realize this will work against Burke in gaining any sort of leverage on the bargaining table. If he shows any sign of desperation, then other teams will not offer what Burke really wants.

And regarding Giggy vs. Kaberle. The only difference between the two is that JS is making 3mil more. So, let's look at it this way then. JS and Kaberle are both entering their final year of their contract. Both have NTCs. Both are over 30, around 1-2 years apart. JS=7mil and we all agree that he ain't getting that much again....at best maybe 4mil per. Kaberle=4.25mil and could easily get 4.5, maybe 5mil per. So, maybe Burke shouldn't let JS walk away so easily also.

The last thing the Burke should do is trade away Kaberle for a sack of potatoes. Remember, the sack of potatoes may have longer term contracts - just look at the Hawks and how hamstrung they are with cap issues. Kaberle staying for the year is a good thing, and the Leafs will get 4.25mil cap space if he walks next year. We're actually getting something in return after all.

PS: You add JS' 7mil to the 4.25mil = 11.25mil and you're talking about some serious cap space for a VERY young team that just got younger by removing JS and Tomas. Got to look at the bigger picture sometimes.

He wont be trading giggy. Him and giggy have a great respect for each other and giggy loves Frankie Allaire. On top of that giggy's son requires medical attention that is not readily available but is available in TO. Plus having him mentor and push jonas is a great thing. They both play a similar style and who better to learn from than a guy that has won a conn smythe and a cup playing that style and having his coach coach you.

With regard to the JFJ situation his biggest problem was trading for older players or younger, unproven and usually troubled players.

-Signed Nieuwendyk (37)
-trades Maxim Kondratiev and Jarkko Immonen as well as a first-round pick (Kris Chucko) in the 2004 draft and a second-round pick (Michael Sauer) in the 2005 draft for brian leetch (36)
-trades a 4th (jared boll) for a 41 year old francis
-re-signs belfour to 3 year deal (he was 39)
-trades a 4th for oneill (29 but has been ineffective)
-resigns domi and signs jason allison on same day (see old players)
-signs lindros (injury prone)
-trades rask for raycroft (shudder)
-signed boyd deveraux (reclamation project)
-claimed chad kilger (another reclamation)
-traded brendan bell and a 2nd for yanic perreault (36 and played 17 games)
-trades a first-round pick (Lars Eller) and a fourth-round pick to San Jose for Toskala and forward Mark Bell
-signed 34 year old jason blake to a 5 year deal

None of these are close to trading for the sake of trading. He gambled on older players and lost (over and over again).


If Burke trades kaberle then no one who finished the 07-08 season will start the 10-11 season. A complete overhaul within 3 years. At this point out longest serving forward is 24 year old nikolai kulemin.

[mr ozzie]

He wont be trading giggy. Him and giggy have a great respect for each other and giggy loves Frankie Allaire. On top of that giggy's son requires medical attention that is not readily available but is available in TO. Plus having him mentor and push jonas is a great thing. They both play a similar style and who better to learn from than a guy that has won a conn smythe and a cup playing that style and having his coach coach you.

With regard to the JFJ situation his biggest problem was trading for older players or younger, unproven and usually troubled players.

-Signed Nieuwendyk (37)
-trades Maxim Kondratiev and Jarkko Immonen as well as a first-round pick (Kris Chucko) in the 2004 draft and a second-round pick (Michael Sauer) in the 2005 draft for brian leetch (36)
-trades a 4th (jared boll) for a 41 year old francis
-re-signs belfour to 3 year deal (he was 39)
-trades a 4th for oneill (29 but has been ineffective)
-resigns domi and signs jason allison on same day (see old players)
-signs lindros (injury prone)
-trades rask for raycroft (shudder)
-signed boyd deveraux (reclamation project)
-claimed chad kilger (another reclamation)
-traded brendan bell and a 2nd for yanic perreault (36 and played 17 games)
-trades a first-round pick (Lars Eller) and a fourth-round pick to San Jose for Toskala and forward Mark Bell
-signed 34 year old jason blake to a 5 year deal

None of these are close to trading for the sake of trading. He gambled on older players and lost (over and over again).


If Burke trades kaberle then no one who finished the 07-08 season will start the 10-11 season. A complete overhaul within 3 years. At this point out longest serving forward is 24 year old nikolai kulemin.

I'm not advocating to trade JS. I'm merely pointing out that if people are going to say trade Kaberle now for the best offer, then you're simply trading Kaberle just for the sake of making a trade and appeasing the fans. If the mentality is to trade players on their last year so that they don't walk out for nothing, then why not JS too? Gunnarsson? Schenn? They're all entering their last years, right? It's stupid to trade those guys, but yet it's alright to trade Kaberle? And trade him for the "best offer"? Well, none of you know what that best offer actually is, do you? The best offer could be a 1st round plus a bad multi-year contract for all we know.

By the way, the Toskala acquisition is the perfect example of trading for the sake of trading. Fans and media have run Raycroft out of town by year's end. JFJ caved and basically sealed his fate.

[mr ozzie]

Burke is trying to fix the issues left from previous GM's. In my opinion, the Leafs shouldn't even be talking playoffs. Burke has this team going in the right direction, but Tomas Kaberle is not in that picture... He can't be... And here's why:

Aging player, even though he's still a top performer. You will have to get a Top 6 forward for him, that's a key, but to get someone to help right now, you might as well keep Kaberle. In my opinion, he should be given away to the highest bidder who is offering Draft Picks and Prospects. He's good enough to get those things, and there are teams in the league that will give their best prospects for a guy like Kaberle.

Jeff Finger should be the one discussed here and not Kaberle. Finger is a waste of money and should either be bought out or buried in the Minors, and it has to happen now.

Guigere, depending on what he wants to do with his career, I'd keep him. There's no harder working player on the Leafs right now than this dude, and its someone you can use to help train The Monster.

I think the Leafs are headed in the right direction, but they have to lose Kaberle, Finger, and bring back draft picks and prospects.

Do they have a team right now that can make the playoffs? No... Should they? No.

In two years time will they have a team that will make the playoffs? They sure will...

I heard they're looking for a Top 1 forward, and names that have popped up on sites that I've seen, are the likes of Zach Parise and Bobby Ryan. If they can get one of these bodies before the all star break this year, it might put them over the top, but I still doubt it.

You're right, we shouldn't be talking playoffs. I'm probably the only Leaf fan that wants this team to rebuild the proper way - through drafting. But Burke has openly stated that he's impatient, and has to appease a ravenous fan base plus corporate sponsors and ownership who are more impatient than Burke. You have to understand that this is a city that wants Kaberle out, or want this team to tank to get the 1st overall pick for 5 years, yet will want Burke on a spit if the team doesn't make it to the playoffs this coming season.

[mr ozzie]

i agree with you - it makes no sense to trade Kaberle for someone with a bad contract. Burke did that last year with Giguere and Phaneuf.

i'm saying he shouldn't just hold out for a top 6 player as i don't think he'll get that. but i do think it's worth dealing Kaberle if he can get a quality prospect that has top 6 potential and a high draft pick. that would give them both cap flexibility plus replace the Kessel pick plus give them another asset up front that can turn into a top 6 player.

is that idea? no. ideally, Burke would like to get someone like Claude Giroux who has top 6 talent and a great contract. problem is that he's not getting that.
best he can hope for is someone like Ryan Malone who has top 6 talent but also comes with a hefty contract. is that really better than a quality prospect and a high pick? i don't think so - maybe Burke does.

so not trading Kaberle means you don't play Gunnarsson and you get nothing for him but his cap space when he leaves.
trading Kaberle for a pick + prospect means you still get the cap space + you get two assets. that's better, no?

The problem here is, is that Burke wants a player that can help immediately - not someone who has the potential to help further down the road. There's no point in lounging around in the bottom next season. We've got no 1st round pick. So, the only thing to do is to challenge for that 7th or 8th spot and hope for the best. So, if Burke can't find a player that can match Kaberle's offensive output, then what's the point? The team is hurting on offense already. Why hurt it even more?