Report shows....Religion among Americans hits record low.

[Wickabee]

This is cherry picking.

I focused on the economy because that's what I thought you were reflecting your comment on.

Yes well, maybe you shouldn't assume. You assume a LOT.

Number of school shootings is hardly a problem compared to the number of gun related deaths which is about 10,000/year in America, but as we have discussed in the past, this is a cultural problem America has....it has NOTHING to do with religion.

So you have a CULTURAL problem in a CULTURE where religion is a major CULTURAL component...yeah, I can see how religion has nothing to do with American culture.

Ironically enough, more liberals (who account for the greatest number of non-religious) are more in favor of strict gun prevention laws.....including myself.....although admittedly, I am seeing the light and I realize that no amount of laws will actually do anything until we change our "culture of guns".

This has nothing to do with anything. I can only assume you put it in to tire me out. Fail.

Divorce and suicides.....I don't have to get into that, as I'm sure you should know that being non-religious has nothing to do with moral dilemmas.

Actually, this is wrong. While it doesn't have to, for many, many people it does. Religion helps them through moral dilemas gives them strength and, many times, helps them make the right decision. Right here your are looking at the people who go against the real message of their so-called "faith" and assume every Christian is exactly the same. You do that a lot.

So, I guess you ARE trying to make a case for a more non-religious country leads to problems?

Nope.

If so, I am very disappointed in such a claim.

Good thing I didn't.

It is baseless, and easily refutable.

For the last time, that's not my argument. You've again made an assumption and created an argument around that incorrect assumption. Nice work.

Europe as a whole is a very non-violent continent, with high educational standings, high life expectancy, very good health care, low gun crime, low rape crime.....and yet they are MUCH more non-religious and atheistic than the U.S:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religio...rometer_2010-1

^Focus on the poll by "Eurobarometor"

40% Atheists in France

34% Atheists in Sweden

27% Atheists in Germany

25% Atheists in UK

The "Non-Religious" numbers must be much higher since this is a combination of ANYONE who doesn't practice religion regardless of their belief in god.


Wick, you don't have an argument here....you own country shows that:

"...Adams used a recent Canada-U.S. poll to demonstrate the divide. The poll shows 58 per cent of Americans saying that it is necessary to believe in God in order to be a moral person, while only 30 per cent of Canadians agree to this.

And while 45 per cent of Americans now say they go to church every week, only 20 per cent (down from 85 per cent in the 1950s) of Canadians can say the same thing."

Source: http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/04/0...-us-canada.htm

Ok, why the emphasis on MY OWN COUNTRY? (it's not mine, by the way, there are millions and millions of people who have the same claim I do, and many more who have better claim than I do. We all share though)

What you're showing is good data. I'm not arguing with the data. I'm saying America is in a toilet in all areas and is spinning fast down the drain. You're happy that religion is on the decline. But when I see what's on the rise at the same time, I see the possibility of a real correlation between the two.

Of course, that correlation would mean religion isn't completely the evil entity you describe it as. To admit that religion does some noticable good would undermine every argument you've ever made, so you won't. This is also what's wrong with the scientific method as we know it. You always ask me how ego could possibly get in the way of facts, you're demonstrating how. You refuse to even look at the possibility that religion does have a real place in society (they aren't separate, as you seem to think) and dismiss the very idea that the decline of America and the decline of religion could be related. The possibiilty is there, but you deny it without a second thought because of your preconceived thoughts of religion.

Basically, it's no different than someone saying "Look, I think the Earth is round" and you saying "No. It's flat. Look at the evidence. It's under your feet. What does it look like? Flat. It's flat. The Earth is flat." because you're already convinced the Earth is, in fact, flat.

[Wickabee]

Ok, the amount of assumptions in this post is staggering.

It's pretty high....

What does that have to do with anything?

I could tell you, but I'd rather you guess and get it wrong a few times.

Do you think only non-religious people kill themselves?

Nope, guess again.

BTW, do you think killing yourself is "immoral".....because I don't.

Me neither. What this has to do with anything we're talking about is beyond me, but we agree here...yay?

I feel that human beings are the masters of their own bodies and as such they can do what they please with it.

Again, so what? Get back on topic.

Lastly, there ARE studies as to why suicides are so high in Japan and other Asian countries.....the problem is NOT immorality or religion....it's social pressures:

http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/16/se...cide-epidemic/

And there it is. You're pointing to Japan as such a great culture because of lack of religion and gun violence. Forget the fact their society is so competetive that mere high school pushes their children to killing themselves. Moral or not, I don't want kids killing themselves. But they're great because there's less religion and religion and suicide don't go together so ignore it.

On the other hand, in a more religious culture, particularly a Christian one, suicide is a sin that automatically gets you banned from heaven. I don't believe that, you don't believe that, but many do and if it saves lives, so be it.

[JustAlex]

What you're showing is good data. I'm not arguing with the data. I'm saying America is in a toilet in all areas and is spinning fast down the drain. You're happy that religion is on the decline. But when I see what's on the rise at the same time, I see the possibility of a real correlation between the two.

And yet there isn't.

As I can easily show that violence in America is DOWN!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...963761,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/29/justice/us-violent-crime

YOU assumed just as much....that America is getting more violent, when in reality it's not.

Of course, that correlation would mean religion isn't completely the evil entity you describe it as. To admit that religion does some noticable good would undermine every argument you've ever made, so you won't.

What utter nonsense.

While I'm in fact making a case that there is ZERO correlation between religion, morality, and crimes.

You're trying to make one on the INCORRECT assumption that violence is on the rise in the U.S.

[JustAlex]

...and America has never been in worse shape.

^This, right here is the implication you made.

Religion hits record low in America.....But you made an ASSUMPTION that America has NEVER been in a worse shape as a country.

You then go to say school shootings, divorce, and teen suicides as a correlation.

I say that these things are NOT correlated and show examples of other countries.

You IGNORE those examples....and then say this:

I'm saying America is in a toilet in all areas and is spinning fast down the drain. You're happy that religion is on the decline. But when I see what's on the rise at the same time, I see the possibility of a real correlation between the two.

NO, WRONG, TRY AGAIN!

Violent crime has been steadily going down.

So what now Wick?

[Wickabee]

And yet there isn't.

As I can easily show that violence in America is DOWN!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...963761,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/29/justice/us-violent-crime

Wait, I thought we were comparing to the 1930s. You're shifting posts now.

YOU assumed just as much....that America is getting more violent, when in reality it's not.

You're the one who brought up the 30s. I thought we were going on that scale. Is the US less violent than 1933? If so, I apologize.

What utter nonsense.

While I'm in fact making a case that there is ZERO correlation between religion, morality, and crimes.

You're trying to make one on the INCORRECT assumption that violence is on the rise in the U.S.

Again, I was unaware you'd moved the posts. I guess that's my fault...?

[Wickabee]

^This, right here is the implication you made.

Religion hits record low in America.....But you made an ASSUMPTION that America has NEVER been in a worse shape as a country.

You then go to say school shootings, divorce, and teen suicides as a correlation.

I say that these things are NOT correlated and show examples of other countries.

You IGNORE those examples....and then say this:


NO, WRONG, TRY AGAIN!

Violent crime has been steadily going down.

So what now Wick?

Now you answer for changing the comparison from the 1930s to 5 years ago without notice.

[shrewsbury]

so did you look at my source? and you went with wikipedia again??? (had to get that in)

I am not saying we need more religion, I am just pointing out your data can back up the fact religion declined/morals declined

[JustAlex]

so did you look at my source? and you went with wikipedia again??? (had to get that in)

I am not saying we need more religion, I am just pointing out your data can back up the fact religion declined/morals declined

Shrew, it depends on what you mean by "morals".

I don't think it's morally wrong to divorce or even kill yourself.

I would NEVER argue that one should kill himself because I value life. But at the same time, I believe that people should be able to do as they please with their own bodies.


The U.S has many problems, always has, always will....just like any other country.

There are legitimate reasons for those problems.

For example gun violence.....this is a big problem.

I've acknowledged that this problem is directly correlated with our "culture of guns".

In other words, the U.S is swimming in guns (Over 250 million), it's in the constitution, it has been engraved into our society.....this does not have to do with religion, or morality in general.

And so, the gun violence we see is not due to a rise in non-religion.

But there are other factors.

Let's go to divorce.

What's the cause of the rise in divorce?

Well, I'm sure that there's a variety of reasons.....and it's been steadily rising for some time now.

But we might be looking at it from the wrong end....maybe there's a problem with marriage, which is causing the divorce rate to be higher.

Maybe people are pressured into marriage when they are not ready.


we can do this for many topics....but to say that religion and morality goes hand in hand is silly.

[Wickabee]

I would NEVER argue that one should kill himself because I value life. But at the same time, I believe that people should be able to do as they please with their own bodies.

I agree. However I must ask, do you consider a high suicide rate to be a problem or just a fact of life and death?

[JustAlex]

I agree. However I must ask, do you consider a high suicide rate to be a problem or just a fact of life and death?

It depends.

If people are killing themselves due to bullying....that's a problem.

If people are killing themselves because they simply don't want to live, then that's their own business.

We would need to see the numbers of people killing themselves due to third party influences, and address those influences.

When it comes to bullying, that's an easy one....we need to stop bullying in schools, the internet, and any other places where it might be rampant.