UD Black Diamond - Exquisite Collection (True?) Rookie cards

[30ranfordfan]

I get that.

I know a bit about how the SCF inventory works.....

Each card is added to the database. It can be tagged GU, Auto, RC (maybe there is something else too. I forget?)/

Anyway - RC is a tag that can be added to a card. XRC is not. Just isn't an option that was made here.


My question - Why does Beckett call your card and XRC, and not a RC ? What is it about that set that makes it XRC ??

According to Beckett, it was classified as an XRC, but when I questioned it here, because at the time, I was listing my binder of tradeable RC's, but it didn't come up, I was told SCF doesn't use an XRC designation, only Beckett does.

[SenatorCollector]

I get that.

I know a bit about how the SCF inventory works.....

Each card is added to the database. It can be tagged GU, Auto, RC (maybe there is something else too. I forget?)/

Anyway - RC is a tag that can be added to a card. XRC is not. Just isn't an option that was made here.


My question - Why does Beckett call your card and XRC, and not a RC ? What is it about that set that makes it XRC ??

On that question bud, I have no clue!

[samim]

Then you get down to the Exquisite cards.

There is this one:

Exquisite Rookies Set Checklist
PARALLEL CARDS: Spectrum 1/1.
R-AM Auston Matthews - Toronto Maple Leafs #/ 34

It's not the 1/1 Serial Numbering that stops that Spectrum from being a rookie card... the Spectrum is a parallel of the base. Those base cards are all #ed to player Jersey numbers... so whatever their jersey number is, that's how many copies there are. That's what the rookie card should be. SPGU is the same way, with different serial numbering for each player.

HOWEVER... because Exquisite is not a stand alone release, It's debatable if those cards should be considered "rookie cards". I say no. Others will say yes. I suppose in the end, it doesn't really matter. That Matthews Exquisite /34 is going to sell for big bucks regardless of what tag beckett, myself, or anyone gives it.


Look at the checklist for 2013-14 SPGU. Card #164.... Jack Campbell. His base card is serial numbered to his jersey: #1. That is the rookie card. The unnumbered Gold Autograph also exists, and is also card #164. It's a parallel.

So again, we go back to this "true rookie card" thing. If you have that Campbell... do you say "I have Campbell's true rookie card from SPGU" ?? I think "true" is unnecessary, because if you have the Gold Autograph and say "I have Campbell's autograph rookie card from SPGU" you are wrong. That is not a rookie card. It's an autograph parallel of a rookie card.

Apologies for narrowing down the post, but better to keep the context neat and tidy.

First of all, thanks for a comprehensive and well thought answer. These are excellent insights. I stopped collecting hockey cards after the hockey boom in Finland in the early 90s, and everything has since changed due to numbering the cards. That's a great thing and I think the trading cards have developed in the right direction ever since. It's no longer just mass production, so that everyone will have everything. It also adds an actual value for the cards. Nowadays if you want Forsberg's, Selänne's or <insert a hero>, the only thing you need to do is goto Ebay and buy it for a few dollars. The card numbering changed everything. I think it was an excellent move from the Upper Deck to combine player's jersey # to the number of releases. This way, only the real fans who are willing to take a decent financial puncture will get what they want. Also it will by no doubt upkeep the value of these cards when there are for instance only 29 or 34 pieces available and in a few years you will really need to dig deep if you want to buy piece of the history.

Anyway, not to derail further, as you said it the rules have changed with what can be labelled as a true rookie card and what not. That's a step into positive direction since as the game itself have developed, so have the cards and collecting. This particular brand might not fulfill every rule that has been written in the past, but nevertheless in the end it's us, the collectors who buy and collect them. We are the ones who dictate the price. I actually inquired about this from Beckett but they have not yet managed to write back. I suppose the SP authentic will always be considered as the "true" rookie card, but Exquisite is far harder to come by with. The mere fact that there have been only a few of Matthews' cards and none of Laine appeared in the Ebay is a living prove of this. Even while the paralleled Spectrum card is not an actual rookie card, I'm guessing it holds far greater value due to coming down to only one piece and being more sought after. If the base card was sold for lets say $500, how much more would the one of one command? x5? or even x10? When one manages to grap a piece that has no other copies, that makes the collection truly unique. If that happens to be an insert paralleled from a rookie card, I'd guess that would have to be something really special.

[SenatorCollector]

Apologies for narrowing down the post, but better to keep the context neat and tidy.

First of all, thanks for a comprehensive and well thought answer. These are excellent insights. I stopped collecting hockey cards after the hockey boom in Finland in the early 90s, and everything has since changed due to numbering the cards. That's a great thing and I think the trading cards have developed in the right direction ever since. It's no longer just mass production, so that everyone will have everything. It also adds an actual value for the cards. Nowadays if you want Forsberg's, Selänne's or <insert a hero>, the only thing you need to do is goto Ebay and buy it for a few dollars. The card numbering changed everything. I think it was an excellent move from the Upper Deck to combine player's jersey # to the number of releases. This way, only the real fans who are willing to take a decent financial puncture will get what they want. Also it will by no doubt upkeep the value of these cards when there are for instance only 29 or 34 pieces available and in a few years you will really need to dig deep if you want to buy piece of the history.

Anyway, not to derail further, as you said it the rules have changed with what can be labelled as a true rookie card and what not. That's a step into positive direction since as the game itself have developed, so have the cards and collecting. This particular brand might not fulfill every rule that has been written in the past, but nevertheless in the end it's us, the collectors who buy and collect them. We are the ones who dictate the price. I actually inquired about this from Beckett but they have not yet managed to write back. I suppose the SP authentic will always be considered as the "true" rookie card, but Exquisite is far harder to come by with. The mere fact that there have been only a few of Matthews' cards and none of Laine appeared in the Ebay is a living prove of this. Even while the paralleled Spectrum card is not an actual rookie card, I'm guessing it holds far greater value due to coming down to only one piece and being more sought after. If the base card was sold for lets say $500, how much more would the one of one command? x5? or even x10? When one manages to grap a piece that has no other copies, that makes the collection truly unique. If that happens to be an insert paralleled from a rookie card, I'd guess that would have to be something really special.

Myself personally, and this is 100% personal opinion on this, but I would tend to think that, yes, a 1/1 parallel of a rookie card would probably be worth a premium compared to the actual RC, especially depending on the player depicted, but I honestly believe that, if the player continues to be highly collectable, then eventually the value of that RC should theoretically exceed a parallel, regardless of scarcity.
We as collectors look at several different factors that determine a card's value; is it an RC?, the market the player plays in, serial numbering, pack price, specific sets, etc. The one constant that will never change is the RC. Sure, the value may fluctuate, but you can't ever have a second rookie season!

[30ranfordfan]

Derail further? I think it was the other two of us that derailed this thread, and started talking about other stuff. lol

I bolded a line below in your last post. It's a very good point. What actually defines a RC has changed over the years..... and that it would change again is nothing to say can't (or shouldn't) happen.

I dislike the idea that I could open a box of cards, get two completely different cards of the same player, and both of them be called "Rookie Cards". I don't think it's right. Of course... I might be a bit of a dinosaur as far as this hobby goes (I'm in my late 30s).

As for the 1/1 being worth more than the base - That should always be the case. Maybe not if it's a a 1/1 show stamp altering another card... but a 1/1 parallel? Yeah, I'd take that over the base any day. Parallels can be worth a lot more than a RC. People like to point to Crosby's Cup RC... and point out that the Gold parallel, limited to 87 (his jersey number) doesn't sell as high as the "base" ARP /99. Of course it doesn't. One is a Rookie Card, which gets a premium for the tag, and the other is a parallel. The parallel isn't so much more limited than the base to get a premium. You can be sure that if Crosby wore #17 though, that card would sell for more than it does.

I think that's the same with almost anything. If you make the parallel limited enough, and demand is there - it's going to sell for big bucks.


As for the original topic - They did this with Ice a couple of years ago. Inserted Ice packs into BD boxes. I think 2010-11 was the first time? I don't remember what the consensus was at the time. Really nice cards even if they're not RCs... and that's still true about the Exquisite. I'm not sure what to tag them, but I know they're awesome to see, and are valuable.

Apologies for narrowing down the post, but better to keep the context neat and tidy.

First of all, thanks for a comprehensive and well thought answer. These are excellent insights. I stopped collecting hockey cards after the hockey boom in Finland in the early 90s, and everything has since changed due to numbering the cards. That's a great thing and I think the trading cards have developed in the right direction ever since. It's no longer just mass production, so that everyone will have everything. It also adds an actual value for the cards. Nowadays if you want Forsberg's, Selänne's or <insert a hero>, the only thing you need to do is goto Ebay and buy it for a few dollars. The card numbering changed everything. I think it was an excellent move from the Upper Deck to combine player's jersey # to the number of releases. This way, only the real fans who are willing to take a decent financial puncture will get what they want. Also it will by no doubt upkeep the value of these cards when there are for instance only 29 or 34 pieces available and in a few years you will really need to dig deep if you want to buy piece of the history.

Anyway, not to derail further, as you said it the rules have changed with what can be labelled as a true rookie card and what not. That's a step into positive direction since as the game itself have developed, so have the cards and collecting. This particular brand might not fulfill every rule that has been written in the past, but nevertheless in the end it's us, the collectors who buy and collect them. We are the ones who dictate the price. I actually inquired about this from Beckett but they have not yet managed to write back. I suppose the SP authentic will always be considered as the "true" rookie card, but Exquisite is far harder to come by with. The mere fact that there have been only a few of Matthews' cards and none of Laine appeared in the Ebay is a living prove of this. Even while the paralleled Spectrum card is not an actual rookie card, I'm guessing it holds far greater value due to coming down to only one piece and being more sought after. If the base card was sold for lets say $500, how much more would the one of one command? x5? or even x10? When one manages to grap a piece that has no other copies, that makes the collection truly unique. If that happens to be an insert paralleled from a rookie card, I'd guess that would have to be something really special.

[fleurycollector]

Great thread! Good read... I have been collecting since around 1992 or somewhere there so yeah, I remember all the changes. The one that started the debate in the first place is Paul Kariya. His 1991-92 Czech Republic card was the one to own back then Think it booked for $20. Widely considered his "true rc" after all it was his first licensed card available. His 1992-93 World Junoir card was considered common and tossed aside. Now the Czech card may still be worth $5 but the 1992-93 "common" shot up to $8 because of the RC tag.

The XRC tag was needed to classify these "first available licenced cards". J.S Giguere is another good example of this. His only RC card came in 1996-97 UD Ice. But he also had made an appearance in 1994-95 Parkhurst SE. A whole 2 years earlier!

Neither of these sets were "widely available" (I think Parkhurst SE was only sold in Canada for instance) so they do not qualify for RC tag. I personally think it's unfortunate SCF doesn't handle this tag.

[sedinfan]

@30ranfordfan, 03/04 Parkhurst Original6 Chicago Blackhawks #22 Lasse Kukkonen. I know this one isn't a show card because I pack pulled it myself at an LCS across the street from my work. I'm on a tablet, or I'd send a scan if I could!

Apparently there was some debate around this set, from what I gather while it was released as boxes with packs, there were separate boxes for each team, so it's more of a team-specific product due to the manner it was distributed in than an NHL card set.

[SenatorCollector]

Apparently there was some debate around this set, from what I gather while it was released as boxes with packs, there were separate boxes for each team, so it's more of a team-specific product due to the manner it was distributed in than an NHL card set.

That seems like a valid point, but it also leads to 2 separate questions. First, even though it was released in team specific boxes, were the cards not sequentially numbered so that eventually, you have a complete set? Which leads to the second question. Was this a similar issue with the 04/05 ITG Franchises Set? Yes, it was released in 3 different stages ( US East, US West, and Canadian ) but each release was numbered to be continuous.

[samim]

Derail further? I think it was the other two of us that derailed this thread, and started talking about other stuff. lol

I bolded a line below in your last post. It's a very good point. What actually defines a RC has changed over the years..... and that it would change again is nothing to say can't (or shouldn't) happen.

I dislike the idea that I could open a box of cards, get two completely different cards of the same player, and both of them be called "Rookie Cards". I don't think it's right. Of course... I might be a bit of a dinosaur as far as this hobby goes (I'm in my late 30s).

As for the 1/1 being worth more than the base - That should always be the case. Maybe not if it's a a 1/1 show stamp altering another card... but a 1/1 parallel? Yeah, I'd take that over the base any day. Parallels can be worth a lot more than a RC. People like to point to Crosby's Cup RC... and point out that the Gold parallel, limited to 87 (his jersey number) doesn't sell as high as the "base" ARP /99. Of course it doesn't. One is a Rookie Card, which gets a premium for the tag, and the other is a parallel. The parallel isn't so much more limited than the base to get a premium. You can be sure that if Crosby wore #17 though, that card would sell for more than it does.

I think that's the same with almost anything. If you make the parallel limited enough, and demand is there - it's going to sell for big bucks.


As for the original topic - They did this with Ice a couple of years ago. Inserted Ice packs into BD boxes. I think 2010-11 was the first time? I don't remember what the consensus was at the time. Really nice cards even if they're not RCs... and that's still true about the Exquisite. I'm not sure what to tag them, but I know they're awesome to see, and are valuable.

I think the collectors, no matter how old school, just need to adjust to the changes. I kind of like the idea of having a chance of hitting two different rookie cards coming out of one box. Yet, as we've already agreed upon, it's a matter of how one perceives things. This especially with a wicked release such as Exquisite.

I absolutely agree about one of one's parallel holding more value than the base card ("true" rookie card or not). There can be # amount of base cards, which still usually are in tens or dozens, but when there is only one parallel in such case as this, one person in the world owns that card. Just one. So of course it has more value, especially if it's a parallel to a rookie card, not some random insert (while the card itself can be considered an insert just the same). Of course if we look closer to SP game used and for instance the Red Spectrum Auto Patch which is more rare than the base card (being /25). I wouldn't pay more from this insert than the actual rookie card. The difference in numbers isn't large enough in this case. Perhaps in a few years the base rookie cards from Exquisite sells for more than SP Game Used. While this is not reality today, we do not know for sure what the future has in store for us. Yet the fact remains, while both Exquisite and SP Game Used rookie base series hold same amount of cards for the two top rookies in it's class, the Exquisite rookie cards are still far harder to come by with than SP Game Used despite of being earlier release. I have yet to hear one explanation why there has been none of Laine's Exquisite rookie base cards emerged in the public stage. Do not believe for a second that none of these cards have not dropped already, so why are the sellers holding back with releasing them for sale?

Didn't expect this topic to open up this much discussion. I appreciate all the insights and opinions, no matter whether they differ from mine or go hand in hand with them. This especially due to not collecting cards for two decades and having no recent examples to draw accurate first hand conclusions. It feels good to be back though. Hopefully there will be another hockey card boom in my country (Finland) sometime in the future. I believe Laine has awoken a lot of old collectors while there still aren't any card stores in the country like in the early 90s. (:

[doniceage]

@30ranfordfan,. Excellent points my friend! My only question now is, after searching Ty Conklin Rookie Cards, it appears to me, unless I missed it, that when Beckett went back and re-tagged the 01/02 Titanium as rookie cards, why was Conklin's not tagged? A moot point either way.
On a slightly different note, as I was listing some cards for trade, I came across an Original 6 Lasse Kukkonen RC. Tried to find it under RC's but it wasn't listed. After searching, I discovered it's an XRC. When I asked about it here, I was told that SCF doesn't recognize an XRC destination, which made sense to me. Now, fast forward about a month, and I see there is an Auston Matthews XRC in the database. Again, can't remember which specific set, but just struck me as strange at first. Of course, since then I've concluded that, in certain instances, because of a player's collectability, rules will be bent from time to time. I mean hey, EVERYBODY wants a Matthews RC, but really, how many of us have even heard of Kukkonen?

Yes, the 01/02 Titanium set was confusing to say the least! 1 Conklin RC, 17 Kovalchuk's, etc. Virtually impossible for all but 1 person to ever complete a base set!

It might have been virtually impossible but the feat was done. As it was presented in Beckett and the crazy collector who did it. Believe he sold it later and I am would wager he took a loss!

DON