NBA Playoffs Discussion Thread

[jmintz]

I have no doubt Kobe was a more dynamic scorer but MJ was bigger/stronger/faster and that gives him an edge overall.

No, no, and no.

They were the same height, and Kobe came up at a time when strength training was a bigger deal. When he came in as an 18-year-old, obviously no. But in his prime, Kobe had a bigger body and was stronger than Jordan. As for "faster," I don't know that there is any differential.

I can't tell if you are serious about LeBron being greatest of all time, but Jordan dominated in a decade that was more competitive from top to bottom from a sheer standpoint that the players were more fundamentally sound across the board.

Lebron as top 5? Absolutely.

GOAT?

No.

[Jameis1of1]

No, no, and no.

They were the same height, and Kobe came up at a time when strength training was a bigger deal. When he came in as an 18-year-old, obviously no. But in his prime, Kobe had a bigger body and was stronger than Jordan. As for "faster," I don't know that there is any differential.

I believe Phil Jackson and even Kobe himself have publicly disagreed with you, so, um ... no.

I can't tell if you are serious about LeBron being greatest of all time, but Jordan dominated in a decade that was more competitive from top to bottom from a sheer standpoint that the players were more fundamentally sound across the board.

I never said LeBron was the GOAT ... I said when he finally retires his stats will be so other-worldly and tower over Jordan's that he will be the Gretzky of the NBA ... I don't think that's even debatable ...

[jmintz]

I believe Phil Jackson and even Kobe himself have publicly disagreed with you, so, um ... no.



I never said LeBron was the GOAT ... I said when he finally retires his stats will be so other-worldly and tower over Jordan's that he will be the Gretzky of the NBA ... I don't think that's even debatable ...

Obviously Kobe thinks he's the best ever. And Phil Jackson will say whatever is appropriate at the time.

And, I'm not sure there's anyone who can argue against Gretzky being the best ever, so saying that LeBron is going to be the Gretzky of the NBA and that his stats will "tower over Jordan's" implies GOAT.

[Jameis1of1]

And, I'm not sure there's anyone who can argue against Gretzky being the best ever, so saying that LeBron is going to be the Gretzky of the NBA and that his stats will "tower over Jordan's" implies GOAT.

There are many hockey buffs who do NOT believe Gretzky was the GOAT while probably 99.999999999% of casual hockey fans believe Gretzky was the GOAT and I'm saying the day is coming when way more people will view LBJ as the GOAT than MJ as LBJ's stats will just dwarf Jordan's AND because he plays in the age of social media and crystal clear television :-)

[jmintz]

There are many hockey buffs who do NOT believe Gretzky was the GOAT while probably 99.999999999% of casual hockey fans believe Gretzky was the GOAT and I'm saying the day is coming when way more people will view LBJ as the GOAT than MJ as LBJ's stats will just dwarf Jordan's AND because he plays in the age of social media and crystal clear television :-)

I don't know that I could find a single "hockey buff" that can say anyone besides Gretzky is the best ever. I come from a family of huge hockey fans (and my family owns season tickets to the minor league team that used to be run by Marcel Dionne).

Gretzky is the goals leader by a large margin, the assists leader by a large margin, and he won multiple Stanley Cups. He has 1000 - A THOUSAND - more career points than the next guy (Messier) with nearly 300 fewer games played. TWICE as many points. Who else is even in the discussion? Howe? Roy (if you want to go goalie)? The answer is no one. It's a non-issue.

I was born in the late 70s so I have watched nearly as much basketball in LeBron's era as I have Jordan's. LeBron dragged a lesser cast of characters through the playoffs than Jordan ever did with his first Finals run. But, I don't think there's ANYONE who will say he will trump Jordan.

Ever.

[WilyWestbrook0]

Celtics finally got a win in.

The Thunder are up, but I'm wondering how long it will last. Gonna wait and see if they actually put up a good third quarter before I tune in.

[Jameis1of1]

I don't know that I could find a single "hockey buff" that can say anyone besides Gretzky is the best ever. I come from a family of huge hockey fans (and my family owns season tickets to the minor league team that used to be run by Marcel Dionne).

Gretzky is the goals leader by a large margin, the assists leader by a large margin, and he won multiple Stanley Cups. He has 1000 - A THOUSAND - more career points than the next guy (Messier) with nearly 300 fewer games played. TWICE as many points. Who else is even in the discussion? Howe? Roy (if you want to go goalie)? The answer is no one. It's a non-issue.

There are MANY hockey nuts that feel Bobby Orr was the greatest player to ever skate, many. There are also many that feel Mario Lemieux was a better player than Gretzky ... and some that think Russia's Valeri Kharlamov was better than both of them. There are some that feel Howe was better and yes Patrick Roy tops some lists as well (and there are many that seem to think Russia's Vladislav Tretiak was way better than Roy!) but that's sort of a different argument. Anyways, like I said, nearly all casual fans view Gretzky as the GOAT but that percentage drops a great deal when talking about what actual hockey nuts think.

I was born in the late 70s so I have watched nearly as much basketball in LeBron's era as I have Jordan's. LeBron dragged a lesser cast of characters through the playoffs than Jordan ever did with his first Finals run. But, I don't think there's ANYONE who will say he will trump Jordan.

Ever.

You're just wrong ... there are a great many younger fans that already believe LeBron is ahead of Jordan on a GOAT list and I'm telling you when LeBron's career is over and he has 10,000+ more points than Jordan in the regular season and maybe 3,000+ more than him in the playoffs, along with far more rebounds and assists in both the regular season and post-season, more conference titles, maybe even TWICE as many, etc., etc., LeBron numbers will look like Gretzky's and he will be considered the Gretzky of the NBA imho ... many 80s era fans will still believe Jordan is the GOAT at that time the same way some elderly folks think Howe was better than Gretzky, but LeBron will be considered the GOAT in large numbers I believe.

[WilyWestbrook0]

Well I really opened a can of worms with my LeBron comment ... lol

So happy for my Thunder. I tuned in to see the 4th quarter when I saw they held onto a lead after the 3rd. What a finish! Great game.

[jmintz]

You're just wrong ... there are a great many younger fans that already believe LeBron is ahead of Jordan on a GOAT list and I'm telling you when LeBron's career is over and he has 10,000+ more points than Jordan in the regular season and maybe 3,000+ more than him in the playoffs, along with far more rebounds and assists in both the regular season and post-season, more conference titles, maybe even TWICE as many, etc., etc., LeBron numbers will look like Gretzky's and he will be considered the Gretzky of the NBA imho ... many 80s era fans will still believe Jordan is the GOAT at that time the same way some elderly folks think Howe was better than Gretzky, but LeBron will be considered the GOAT in large numbers I believe.

You realize that Lebron will have passed Jordan in games played by the end of the second week of next season, right? Total points isn't the only way to judge anything. It's quantitative data boosted by games and minutes played. I'm not a Lebron hater by any means. I think he's the best player in the league right now, and has basically been for his entire career. I just think you're presenting flawed arguments if you're basing it solely on stats because he will have played a ton more games than Jordan when all is said and done.

Are you an FSU fan? I graduated from UF. There's no WAY we're ever going to agree on this :)

[Jameis1of1]

You realize that Lebron will have passed Jordan in games played by the end of the second week of next season, right? Total points isn't the only way to judge anything. It's quantitative data boosted by games and minutes played. I'm not a Lebron hater by any means. I think he's the best player in the league right now, and has basically been for his entire career. I just think you're presenting flawed arguments if you're basing it solely on stats because he will have played a ton more games than Jordan when all is said and done.

I'm not presenting an argument for LeBron over Jordan, I'm simply stating that I believe a great deal more fans in the next 10-20 years will rank LeBron ahead of Jordan on their GOAT lists and will point to his cumulative stats that dwarf Jordan's numbers ... most won't care about games played ... I mean no one qualifies the statement that Kareem is the all-time scoring leader by ragging on him for playing a bazillion games.

And ... longevity matters! There is a reason no one ranks Terell Davis ahead of Emmitt Smith on a GOAT RB list despite TD averaging way more yards per game as well as having a higher yards per carry average.

I believe when LeBron retires both his regular season AND playoff points, rebounds, steals, blocks, assists, wins and various other "stats" such as double-doubles, triple-doubles, etc., will DWARF Jordan's numbers to such a degree that nearly all modern fans of the game and even many older fans will absolutely consider Lebron the GOAT ... and they will have a great case.

Are you an FSU fan? I graduated from UF. There's no WAY we're ever going to agree on this :)[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not a Nole fan at all ... I am a fan of players, not teams ... I never liked FSU until Jameis got there and don't care about them now ... I loved UF when TeBow was there but don't care about them now either ... if I had to pick a team I'm partial to, I guess it would be the Michigan State Spartans in football and the Syracuse Orangemen in basketball ... I don't follow baseball or hockey, especially not NCAA baseball or hockey.

I will say I am a big fan of Dalvin Cook but not enough to make me actually care about the Noles the last two years as I also like Fournette. I couldn't even name a single player on FSU's basketball team ...