Greatest of All-Time Debate Thread

[Jameis1of1]

OK, I'm going to bow out of the discussion on this note. Believe whatever hyperbole you wish; just remember that claiming an opinion as fact, does not necessarily make it so.

What you just did isn't honest debating. I said that LeBron's stats and numbers at his current age "dwarf" Jordan's at the same age .. you then turned around and insulted me and used another post to point to Jordan's "averages" rather than his overall numbers and achievemets ... that is NOT honest debating at all and you know it!

HERE ARE THE FACTS (not opinions) WHETHER YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THEM OR NOT

Jordan vs. LeBron at LeBron's current age:

Conference Tites: LeBron (8-3 ... assuming Cavs win East this year)
TITLES: Tied (though if Cavs win this year LeBron will be ahead of MJ 4-3)
Reg Season MVP: LeBron +1
Finals MVP: Tied (though it should be Lebron +2 as he was the MVP of the second Spurs loss and first Warriors loss)
1st Team ALL-NBA: LeBron +4

Reg Season Points: LeBron + 6,789
Playoff Points: LeBron + 1,647 (LBJ will probably be ahead by at least 2,000 points by the end of this year!)
Reg Season Rebounds: LeBron + 3,371
Playoff Rebounds: LeBron + 1,005 (LBJ will probably be ahead by at least 1,200 rebounds by the end of this year!)
Reg Season Assists: LeBron + 3,436
Playoff Assists: LeBron + 616 (LBJ will probably be ahead by at least 700 assists by the end of this year!)
Reg Season Steals: Jordan + 96
Playoff Steals: LeBron + 90 (LBJ will probably be ahead by at least 110 steals by the end of this year!)
Reg Season Blocks: LeBron + 120
Post Season Blocks: LeBron +74 (LBJ will probably be ahead of at least 90 blocks by the end of this year!)

The above does indeed absolutely prove that LeBron's stats and achievements DWARF Jordan's at the same age! If you took the names LeBron and Jordan out of this dicussion and were just debating some mysrerious player A and player B 100% would side with the player represented by LeBron ... obviously. The only people who don't understand this seem to be Jordanairre's that love revisionist history.

[pwaldo]

I'd just like to add how irrelevant Kobe Bryant has become in these discussions. Less than 10 years ago everyone was all over him and now it is onto Lebron James. I'd also have to wonder how many people now have Tim Duncan ahead of him (Kobe)....

Also I know he isn't included in this discussion but boy looking up stats has really shown me that Chris Paul is really underrated.

[Jameis1of1]

I'd just like to add how irrelevant Kobe Bryant has become in these discussions. Less than 10 years ago everyone was all over him and now it is onto Lebron James. I'd also have to wonder how many people now have Tim Duncan ahead of him (Kobe)....

Also I know he isn't included in this discussion but boy looking up stats has really shown me that Chris Paul is really underrated.

Kobe is still compared with MJ all the time, and there are some who believe he was better than MJ (Dr. Dyson went on First Take to make his case for why Kobe was better than Jordan recently) but I think Kobe actually helps LeBron's GOAT claim as while everyone can see Kobe was the modern Jordan and the closest thing to Jordan, LeBron is a far superior player when compared to Kobe ... and therefore many recognize he is a far superior player when compared to Jordan as well.

Kobe topped Jordan up to a certain age ... but Jordan aged better in large part due to the fact he never suffered any legit injuries as he aged whereas Kobe got hurt a lot ... had Kobe never tore his achilles I believe the debate about his GOAT status would be as hot as ever.

As for CP3 ... I feel sorry for him ... heart of a champion it no ring to show for it ... like Iverson, Ewing and Barkley

[JFried1029]

My opinion is that LeBron cannot compare to Jordan. Jordan's level of competitiveness was incomparable. Two points I have not seen brought up which I believe to relevant-

1) In order to win his first two championships LebRon orchestrated what was essentially an All Star team with Wade and Bosh. That was his prerogative to do, but Jordan won with the players his team surrounded him with. Pippen benefited more from playing with Jordan than the reverse.

Ex-Houston Oiler coach Bum Phillips said of Don Shula:

"Don Shula can take his'n and beat your'n, Or he can take your'n and beat his'n."

True of Jordan to a much greater degree than of LeBron.



2) An interesting topic I heard on sports radio a couple of months back. When the Cavs were slumping, LeBron was complaining that the team needed to fill the last spot on the roster and bring in a back-up point guard.

Conversely, when Brady lost Gronkowski before the playoffs, did anyone hear him demanding that the Patriots trade for another tight end? All Brady does is go out and win with what the team has. He truly elevates the players around him, and does not complain about what the team does not have.

[Jameis1of1]

My opinion is that LeBron cannot compare to Jordan. Jordan's level of competitiveness was incomparable.

That is irrelevant. Alonzo Mourning was far more competitive than Shaq but that doesn't change the fact Shaq was a far superior player or that he had a greater career.

Two points I have not seen brought up which I believe to relevant-

1) In order to win his first two championships LebRon orchestrated what was essentially an All Star team with Wade and Bosh. That was his prerogative to do, but Jordan won with the players his team surrounded him with. Pippen benefited more from playing with Jordan than the reverse.

Had LeBron had Pippen and Grant or Rodman along with the GOAT coach he wouldn't have felt the need to leave Cleveland and if you think Jordan would have won a single title, let alone six of them, with the garbage LeBron had around him in Cleveland I think you're kidding yourselves.

Ex-Houston Oiler coach Bum Phillips said of Don Shula:

"Don Shula can take his'n and beat your'n, Or he can take your'n and beat his'n."

True of Jordan to a much greater degree than of LeBron.

Since Jordan NEVER won anything without BOTH Pippen AND the GOAT Coach while LeBron won a Conference title despite being surrounded by perhaps the worst supporting cast in conference title winning history, later won rings with the Heat and then the Cavs, and almost single-handedly beat the Warriors two years ago despite the second best player on his team in the Finals being the pure garbage Matthew Delevedova ... LeBron fits the Shula quote much better than Jordan does ... again, Jordan NEVER won anything, not even a mere conference title without BOTH Pip AND the GOAT coach ....

2) An interesting topic I heard on sports radio a couple of months back. When the Cavs were slumping, LeBron was complaining that the team needed to fill the last spot on the roster and bring in a back-up point guard.

Conversely, when Brady lost Gronkowski before the playoffs, did anyone hear him demanding that the Patriots trade for another tight end? All Brady does is go out and win with what the team has. He truly elevates the players around him, and does not complain about what the team does not have.

Um, what does Brady have to do with the LeBron/Jordan discussion?

As for Jordan ... he was known as a grade-a jerk to his teammates, a coach killer before he got the GOAT coach, and the year he left the game (or was forced to leave by Stern or risk a ban for his gambling as the story goes ...) Pippen not only singlehandedly tore the NBA up but made the rest of that Bulls roster have career years!

Jordan NEVER had the responsibility LeBron had. Jordan was the first option offensively and would guard the opposing team's "second best perimeter player" while Pippen took the lock-down defender role to allow Jordan to rest on the defensive end and roam for seals and blocks ... and even on offense Pip was often the facilitator. However in LeBron's case, he has basically ALWAYS been his team's #1 offensive option AND it's #1 defensive stopper (at times guarding every position on the floor as well) AND it's facilitator ... he has had more responsibility to carry his teams for the majority of his career than anyone I can remember.

[codysmith1997]

MJ was the greatest of all time. Amazing scorer that could go off pretty much whenever he wanted. Quit during the prime of his career, and still ended up 3rd on all time scoring list. Not only was he a great scorer, but also a good defender. Never left Chicago to go to Boston or LA in order to win a championship. 6-0 in Finals. Retired for 3 years, came back, and still averaged over 20 ppg in his two years with the Wizards

[codysmith1997]

He also did everything in about 13 full seasons (not counting years when he played under 25 regular season games). But if you do want to count them, he did everything in 15 seasons, including two seasons where he played in less than half of his teams games.

[JFried1029]

[QUOTE=Jameis1of1;14417152]That is irrelevant. So you alone determine what is and isn't relevant> If it doesn't fit you argument. it's irrelevant. Part of what made Jordan so great was his unwillingness to lose. LeBron doesn't compare to Jordan in mental toughness. Not even close.



Since Jordan NEVER won anything without BOTH Pippen AND the GOAT Coach while LeBron won a Conference title despite being surrounded by perhaps the worst supporting cast in conference title winning history, later won rings with the Heat and then the Cavs, and almost single-handedly beat the Warriors two years ago despite the second best player on his team in the Finals being the pure garbage Matthew Delevedova ... LeBron fits the Shula quote much better than Jordan does ... again, Jordan NEVER won anything, not even a mere conference title without BOTH Pip AND the GOAT coach ....

Interesting that we have a thread here to supposedly determine who is the greatest player, as it is naturally up for debate. But to suit your own argument, you alone anoint Phil Jackson as the GOAT.

[B]Um, what does Brady have to do with the LeBron/Jordan discussion?[B] Um, what do Mourning and Shaq have to do with a Jordan/LeBron discussion?

The point is rather obvious. Jordan took who he was surrounded with and elevated them to champions. LeBron had to go through machinations to team up with Bosh and Wade, and then return to Clevelan when they had the supporting cast and Wade was getting old and injury-prone.

You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you.

[Jameis1of1]

So you alone determine what is and isn't relevant?

It's irrelevant because it's a silly stat AND because you didn't even mention what Jordan's numbers were in the same regards ... that's just silly and makes your entire statement entirely irrelevant.

If it doesn't fit you argument. it's irrelevant.

And what is "my argument"? I made a FACT-based statement that I stand by 100% and which cannot be refuted by you, Wily or anyone else as it isn't a mere opinion" ... LeBron's numbers and achievements at his age DWARF Jordan's at the exact same age ... that is an irrefutable fact whether anyone likes it or not.

Part of what made Jordan so great was his unwillingness to lose. LeBron doesn't compare to Jordan in mental toughness. Not even close.

Another irrelevant statement. Why do I say that? Because it is a mere "opinion" with no factual data to back it up.

Jordan was SWEPT in a playoff series ... LeBron has never been swept. On the flip side LeBron has SWEPT an all-time NBA record 11 opponents ... Jordan didn't come close to that number. Those are actual "facts" and not mere "opinions" and even those facts are relatively irrelevant to the discussion as "winning" in a "team sport" is a "team" accomplishment much more so than an individual one.

Interesting that we have a thread here to supposedly determine who is the greatest player, as it is naturally up for debate. But to suit your own argument, you alone anoint Phil Jackson as the GOAT.

You've got to be kidding me? Basically EVERYONE on earth admits Phil Jackson was the greatest coach of all time. The ONLY other coaches even in the conversation would be Red Auerbach (who is irrelevant as he was long gone by the time Jordan let alone LeBron played) and Greg Popovich (who LeBron and not MJ actually had to go against which just strengthens LeBron's case). You really want to argue that Mike Brown, Eric Spoelstra and Ty Lue are in Phil Jackson's company? Really?

The point is rather obvious. Jordan took who he was surrounded with and elevated them to champions. LeBron had to go through machinations to team up with Bosh and Wade, and then return to Clevelan when they had the supporting cast and Wade was getting old and injury-prone.

Riiiiight, because Jordan was playing with Sasha Pavlovic, Boobie Gibson and all manner of garbage in Chicago rather than Pippen and Grant/Rodman and under the great Phil Jackson, right? Please ...

You are not going to convince me and I am not going to convince you.

What would you like to convince me of?

The facts I stated are irrefutable whether anyone likes them or not. It is a fact, not an opinion, that LeBron's numbers and accomplishments at his current age DWARF Jordan's at the same age ... that isn't even debatable.

However, don't get me wrong, I am NOT stating that LeBron right now is the undisputed GOAT or anything like that. If LeBron were to tear his achilles in his next game and retire I believe more fans would believe Jordan is the GOAT than LeBron. I simply think it's silly to compare a player who finished his career with a guy that could play another 8 years or so ... the only sensible way to compare such players is to compare them "at the same age".P

P.S. Don't take the emoticons as insulting ... I just love those little guys, hahahaha.

[pwaldo]

Kobe is still compared with MJ all the time, and there are some who believe he was better than MJ (Dr. Dyson went on First Take to make his case for why Kobe was better than Jordan recently) but I think Kobe actually helps LeBron's GOAT claim as while everyone can see Kobe was the modern Jordan and the closest thing to Jordan, LeBron is a far superior player when compared to Kobe ... and therefore many recognize he is a far superior player when compared to Jordan as well.

Kobe topped Jordan up to a certain age ... but Jordan aged better in large part due to the fact he never suffered any legit injuries as he aged whereas Kobe got hurt a lot ... had Kobe never tore his achilles I believe the debate about his GOAT status would be as hot as ever.

As for CP3 ... I feel sorry for him ... heart of a champion it no ring to show for it ... like Iverson, Ewing and Barkley

I went over all the stats and some had Jordan better than Lebron while some had Lebron better than Jordan. But none of them had Kobe better than both Jordan and Lebron. So if somebody is going to make a case that Kobe is the best ever they are free to do so but I'm not buying it and never have.