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  1. #1







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    Greatest of All-Time Debate Thread

    So as to keep the playoff thread on-topic, here's a thread to continue the discussion/debate of who might be "the greatest of all time."

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    Michael Jordan. Six out of six in NBA Finals, Finals MVP each and every time....the accolades are endless.

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    Michael Jordan. Six out of six in NBA Finals, Finals MVP each and every time....the accolades are endless.

    +1

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    Jordan is the most over-rated player in NBA history, ahead of Steve Nash ... seriously.

    Now, I don't say that because MJ wasn't great, he obviously was absolutely amazing and has a great GOAT claim along with guys like Kareem, LeBron, Chamberlain, Kob, Shaq (his 'Most Dominant Ever' claim is more legit though) and even Russell (though that is a joke) ... and the guys people want to insert in the GOAT discussion out of respect but who are not deserving at all like: Magic, Bird, Dr. J and George Mikan. I say this about Jordan because he has become a myth ... his entire history has been revised by a legion of Jordanairres who want the younger generation to think MJ was the best at every aspect of the game, could do no wrong and was the GOAT from the time he stepped on the court until the time he retired (for the third time) ... it's pure revisionist history nonsense. The guy was known for years as a shot-chucking, ball-hogging, coach-killing, jerk and horrible "leader" who would never be able to win like Magic & Bird ... even the Bulls owner wanted to trade Jordan and attempted to do so on 2-3 occasions ... it wasn't until he finally won a title as a 28 year old in his 7th year over an old Magic Johnson and a bad Lakers team that the narrative changed and it wasn't until he 3-peated two years later until he started being mentioned in the GOAT category and it wasn't until 5 years after that when he 35 years old that he was considered the so-called undisputed GOAT.

    Now, compare the above to, oh, let's say LeBron ... he started being seriously mentioned in the GOAT discussion after beating the Warriors last year, at the age of 31 ... he's now 32 and by the time this season is over he will probably have not only won more conference titles than Jordan did in his entire career but also become the leading scorer in NBA playoff history ... and he could play another 7-8 years! When LBJ finally hangs up his sneaks, his numbers in both the regular and post-season will dwarf EVERYONE else who has ever played the game to the point he will be widely regarded as the NBA version of Wayne Gretzky and will be considered by more fans to be the GOAT that any other player will ... you can take that to the bank imho.

    Added: Before anyone complains I am simply "young" or merely a "LeBron fan" please understand neither is the case. I had NBA season tickets in the 80s and got to watch Jordan play many, many times ... I actually loved Jordan then and still do. Also, while I like LeBron, Kobe is actually my favorite player ever so it pains me to admit that while Kobe may still be considered "greater" than LeBron to many fans as he has more rings, it's obvious to me that LeBron is a superior "basketball player" than Kobe ever was ... he may not have beat Kobe 1-on-1 or been as dynamic a scorer, but he was a "better basketball player" ... and LeBron is also a better basketball player than Jordan was as well.
    Last edited by Jameis1of1; 04-25-2017 at 01:15 PM.

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    Bringing this over from the other thread:

    "I said he was "technically" traded ... see here: http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/trade_100710.html

    Mow, out of respect to the OP ... I'm going over to the new thread he linked to ... you can debate me there is you'd like :-)"

    If I'm not mistaken, the only reason that went down like that was to maximize returns for both Lebron and the Cavs. He did not have to go the sign-and-trade route but it allowed him to make more money and it allowed the Cavs to actually get something back rather than him walking for nothing, which he could have done as he was a UFA.

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    All elements considered, Jordan is the greatest. Was he selfish early on in his career? Sure, but from the 1990s onward when he had matured, he was invincible. No one outside of Ruth and Gretzky dominated their sport as mythically as he did. He was ruthlessly efficient (shot a high percentage from the field), had astonishing athleticism combined with the greatest hand-eye coordination of any player in history (watch footage of him in his prime and what he was able to do, switching the ball in mid-air with hand fakes, etc.), hit big shots, likely would have won eight rings in a row were it not for his father's tragic death causing him to briefly retire...honestly, he did it all. There were no weaknesses in his game in his prime. No one could stop him and the Bulls.

    Who else is up there? One has to consider LeBron, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe, and Wilt. After that, Magic, Bird, Duncan, and Olajuwon. Maybe Havlicek and Jerry West.

    I said earlier that LeBron is the best since MJ, which is what led to this thread getting started in the first place. :) LeBron, though I don't think he is better than MJ overall, nonetheless has some advantages over MJ. He is much stronger and has far superior gross motor coordination, which is why he is like a freight train when he flies to the basket. He doesn't have the hand-fakes that MJ has, but his lower body strength and coordination (watch his shoulders, chest, etc. when he goes to the basket and dunks) are far superior. Michael had to use finesse and hand-eye coordination to get off his shots, but LeBron uses sheer lower body power and strength. LeBron also has much better court vision and passing abilities than Michael. Michael was a decent passer and could see the court fairly well, but he never pulled off the kinds of passes, or anticipated where his teammates were going, as quickly as LeBron. Both are phenomenal and incomparable one-on-one players, both very good defenders, decent three point shooters when they want to be, etc.

    So where does LeBron fall short? In the clutch, in mental toughness, in competitiveness. If we criticize MJ for selfishness early in his career, remember too that LeBron didn't win his first rings until later in his career, either, but for different reasons. It's not that LeBron was selfish, but that he was mentally weaker. This is the first playoff year where LeBron has been stepping up and hitting clutch shots. Other than the buzzer beater he had in the 2007 playoffs, he is notorious for being one of the WORST finishers, statistically, of all major players who have taken the final deciding shots in a game. This stat was flashed a couple of years ago; I wish I could dig it up quickly and find it, but I remember that ONLY Jamal Crawford had a lower shooting percentage for game-winning shots among players who had taken a certain amount. Otherwise, LeBron was the WORST in league history for clutch shooting. That means the pressure gets to him when it matters MOST. How could we rank such a player ahead of Michael in such a crucial facet of the game!?

    LeBron also turns the ball over a lot more. He is not as tactically efficient or conservative as MJ. He is more energetic, hasty, and prone to gut-level emotional decisions instead of cerebral ones, causing him to take unnecessary risks. I have witnessed both players in their primes, and LeBron simply makes many more errors than Jordan within the tactical context of a given moment of a game.

    So, no, he's not as good as Michael, when we look at ALL facets in their PROPER contexts.

    What other players come close? We have to give Bill Russell credit even though he wasn't a scoring machine. No one was strategically more intelligent, innovative, team-oriented, or better at defense in the history of the NBA (it's not even CLOSE) than Bill Russell who, according to my mother and others who grew up in the era, AVERAGED OVER TEN BLOCKS PER GAME. OVER TEN.

    His teammates, you say? Remember, Bob Cousy was toward the end of his career when Russell came along. Russell won many rings without Cousy. And some of those Celtics teams weren't so great on paper. Indeed, one of the most impressive and shocking championships (if not THE most impressive and shocking) in league history was the underdog, ancient 1969 Celtics team beating the CLEARLY SUPERIOR, talent-wise, Lakers team. The Celtics were NOT great at this point anymore; they won just 48 games, their team was old, they weren't anywhere near the caliber of the Lakers. But they WON. Why? Because Russell was intellectually the smartest player in the history of the game, and could defend anyone and everyone. He was a human supercomputer on the court, calculating every angle for advantage and leverage. You don't win that many rings with so many different players over so many years without being a genius basketball player who deserves mention among the greatest of all-time.

    Kareem...talk about statistical dwarfing of everyone. They had to change the rules because of his dominance. No one could defend his skyhook. He won titles on two different teams, had extraordinary longevity, incomaparable grace and coordination for someone his size, and has the highest "Hall of Fame" percentage of any player on Basketball Reference, including Jordan. His biggest problem was he wasn't a great leader. You could argue that he deferred to Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson. So even though he dwarfs all players, statistically, including LeBron, very few consider him the greatest of all-time. Certainly in the top ten, though, and you could make a case for top five.

    Shaq, Kobe, Wilt...Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem...these guys were among the best, but we start going further away from it by this point. Shaq was a massive machine. If he put more effort into staying in shape, he could have done even more, IMO. As it was, he had Wilt's physical presence (but with even more strength), similar stats, and yet far nastier of a competitive streak. His sidekick, Kobe, eventually matured into one of the greatest as well. Kobe always wanted to be Michael, and while he came fairly close, he was far less efficient. Even when Michael was "chucking" shots in the '80s, he did it at a far higher percentage than Kobe, who simply took too many stupid shots and tried to force his way too many times instead of being logical and efficient. Still, when he matured later in his career, he did a nice job leading the Lakers to additional titles, even without Shaq. As for Wilt, stats alone do speak volumes. Wilt was stronger and more athletic by a ridiculous margin than everyone else in his era. He was also one of the least competitive athletes in league history. For him, it was always about the individual stats. Individual stats came before titles, which is why a player with less inherent "talent," like Bill Russell, outsmarted him to many more NBA championships. It's also why, despite astronomical stats, hardly anyone considers Wilt the greatest in NBA history. Even more than Kareem, Wilt has records and stats that will never be broken. So we can't keep saying that LeBron will "dwarf" everyone and use that as a basis for saying he's better than MJ; he won't even hold a candle to Kareem or Wilt in those categories.

    I'll end my treatise here. I think we can all agree Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, West, and Havlicek were also among the greats, but individually, they weren't quite at the level of the others mentioned. I will give Magic and Bird credit for being stars in a vitally important era, before the MJ hysteria (and frankly teaching MJ how to be a better teammate), and being among the best of all-time. Duncan also can't be overlooked, with all his rings and accomplishments, the most consistently excellent power forward the NBA has seen. Hakeem Olajuwon, meanwhile, is the ONLY NBA player in history to go UP in five major statistical categories in the playoffs (PPG, RPG, APG, FG%, FT%). He took mediocre Rockets teams to two NBA championships, schooled David Robinson, dominated a young and immature Shaq, and probably would have won more were he not in the MJ era. Jerry West, meanwhile -- only Finals MVP on a losing team. Ridiculous stats, clutch shooting, probably would lead the NBA in steals per game in history had they kept track of that stat when he played (his long arms and quick hands were the stuff of legend). And Havlicek is perhaps the quitest superstar in league history. Russell said Havlicek was his greatest teammate, and when you look at his field goal percentage, points, assists, etc., he was quite the legend. He even won a ring without Russell in the '70s.

    D'oh, I forgot Dr.J. He deserves an honorable mention as well.

    But this post is long enough; I'm done for now.

  7. #7





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    Any list that doesn't include this guy on it is an incomplete list:


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    I found it:

    https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/st...769664?lang=en

    5 for 47 on game-winning or game-tying shots.

    You can't be the greatest in NBA history and be that inefficient and winning games on your big shots.

    You just can't.

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    My answer is LeBron but also since he's the only current player in this discussion so maybe let's let him finish his career first? Just a thought.

    I'm more here to offer a counter to what Khendra just posted because i think last 5 seconds is only one of the ways to define "clutchness"
    counterpoint: http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/5/1...-winning-shots

    Article is from a couple years ago but if we rather look at the last minute of a game then we see a different picture. I also don't think we should discount 5/47 but i think that stat is deflated by a lot of regular season games.


    Also (and this is more a defense for lebron and not an attack on MJ), he often gets flack for resting but has played more minutes at age 32 than MJ did in his career. Obviously Lebron didn't go to college and MJ had some time off. But again my point was a defense of LeBron not a point against MJ or anyone else.
    Last edited by imi26dude; 04-25-2017 at 04:45 PM.

  10. #10




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    Basketball now is not even the same as it was when Jordan played. The game is way more different now. There was way more contact and players played with there hearts. Jordan changed the game in cement when he played. All the old school players like Jordan, Stockton, magic, Malone, Bird. Were all time greatest players. No one can play like Jordan no one can replace him. To me he is the greatest player to have ever played.

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