What happens first: Montreal fires Montreal fires Bergevin or Carey Price pulls the "Patrick Roy"?

[Leafsman]

GM gets fired, but what should also happen (after GM is fired) is they should trade Price.

This teams needs a complete rebuild. When I look at their roster, its not shocking that they are at the bottom of the league. Other than a maybe one line up top, and one D man, they need an overhaul. The thing is with Price in goal, he gives you so many chances that your team cannot finish at the bottom of the standings to get those high draft picks you need to build a true contender.

Trade Price, you'll get a King's ransom. And then you can start the re-build process. But this GM should not be the one to do either. He needs to be let go, and someone who can draft and trade better than this guy has should be the one to run this team.

The thing is though, what team is in a position to acquire Carey Price with his contract? A big-money contract (or two) would have to go to Montreal to offset Price's contract. A number one goalie has to come back to Montreal in the deal too. Don't forget a top prospect and few first-round draft picks to restock the prospect pool.

Go through the league and ask yourself what each team would have to give up to acquire Carey Price. Then ask yourself "would that team actually trade those players for that goalie?".

Would Buffalo part with Jack Eichel and Rasmus Ristolainen for Price? Not likely.

Would Toronto part with Nylander, Andersen, and some others for him? I don't see that happening.

Phil Kessel, Matt Murray, and/or Kris Letang from Pittsburgh? Jim Rutherford would laugh hysterically.

Vegas? Fleury (if healthy), Shea Theodore, Cody Glass, and James Neal? I chuckle at that.

[Pheebs888]

Price isn't going anywhere, that would alienate the rest of the fan base for good. Bergevin traded away Subban (who was in my eyes one of the most popular players) and failed to re-sign Radulov (who was another fan favorite). That's 2 summers in a row that a good part of the fan base (myself included) feels short changed.

In the current situation, the Habs wouldn't be able to swing a good trade anyway. Every single GM can see that they are in a world of hurt and they're not trading from a position of force. I think the panic button will be pressed shortly but I'm not sure what the consequence will be...whipping away the GM and coach would be a costly mistake given how much both are paid. I think Bergevin will go but i dont expect it to be now.

And sorry to burst your bubble but Price is not pulling a Roy. Carey has played well below his own capacity this season and he knows it.

[scottkoz20]

Here is another part of trading a goalie like price and the return value

What did Montreal get in return for Roy? IMO, not much


When the Sabres traded hasek when he demanded to be traded. The Sabres got virtually nothing in return (they didn’t even get a goalie coming back)

My point is, Carey price, if dealt is going to NEVER get proper value in a deal, especially if he requests to be dealt.

History tells us this.


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[RGM81]

Great saying about goalies--you never need them until you don't have one. That's why demand has always been low in trades. Most teams are happy with their goalie situation and therefore aren't looking to add or subtract. Those who need to add have a limited market. Those who need to move one have a limited market. You'll see off season moves on the free agent market but trades are rare.


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[RGM81]

@Pheebs888 brings up a good point about fan rage. While she's much more level headed than most, Habs Twitter is a vulgar cesspool on good nights and barely tolerable on bad ones. I've muted or unfollowed a lot of people so far this season. Being critical is fine, the team's performance deserves it. But some of the nattering nabobs of negativity I have zero time for. The Berkshires and Kelly's I find insufferable because they've allowed their fanboy status for PK to cloud everything they write about the team and its management.

Hopefully when the good times start to roll, those voices demanding blood today will offer up some apologies and humble pie...but I doubt it.


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[Leafsman]

That this thread was started by a Leafs fan is just so very, very rich. Your team tanked for years and is just now good, so it's time to rag on other teams. Tremendous.

But that said, there are some problems facing this team.

Whoever it was that said scouting and drafting is one of them...think again. Galchenyuk, Price, Pacioretty, Lehkonen, Plekanec, Mete, and Gallagher are all homegrown talent in this lineup. Last year's first round pick was good enough to merit Drouin (a former #3 overall pick) in a 1-for-1 deal. A former high end 2nd rounder was good enough to merit Shea Weber in a 1-for-1 deal. The jury is still out on McCarron and Scherbak, while it appears promising for Juulsen and Poehling. Timmons is not the problem--when you're consistently picking in the 20's the science and the math and much more difficult. Less than 25% of the 18-year olds picked in that 16-30 range make it. You can compare the draft record of Timmons favourably against most teams.

Development has been the crucial issue. Lefebvre is a terrible coach. Some guys (Leblanc) got injured early and never recovered. Other top guys have not come along as well as they should have. McCarron is still way too soft for a man his size. He should be winning way more puck battles and asserting himself physically. But he's not. Fucale should have been good enough to be Carey's backup by now; instead he's maybe third in line thanks to well-drafted and -scouted guys like Lindgren and McNiven.

Ok...Bergevin. He inherited a mess of a team when he came on in 2012. Turned it around right away. The team was a lot of fun in the lockout season, went to the ECF in 13-14, and has had two 100-point seasons in 14-15 and 16-17. The 15-16 season was a disaster after the Price injury and the locker room dissension that led to the Weber/Subban deal. That's a pretty solid record that many teams would find envious--playoffs in five of six years. 2014 will remain the big "what could have been" due to Kreider wiping out Price and will remain so unless and until this team goes further.

He has made some impact trades and signings that have improved the team. Byron was an absolute gift from the Flames. Vanek was hot down the stretch but fizzled in the 2014 playoffs. Drouin will be a star, and so will Sergachev. Weber has been great and is now in a mentorship role for Mete. Radulov was a great move and it's not on Bergevin that he parlayed his one year in Montreal into a deal the Stars will come to regret. Markov...I think letting Markov go wasn't bad but the replacement by committee has not gone well. And picking up Ott, Martinsen, and King last year thinking they would help the team score goals and win a Cup was dreadful. Some have said that was a fireable offence.

So the personnel record on the ice? Pretty good. Some huge deals. Some ok ones. A couple dumb ones. Hardly unique. He kept his foxhole buddy Therrien too long, but there was nobody of quality to replace him until Julien came available. That was the right move. He's a great coach--a proven winner on many levels. Why is JJ Daigneault still running the defence? Inexplicable. They've had multiple opportunities to bring in Larry Robinson and choose not to do it. Kirk Muller has not cured the power play.

It really is a mixed record overall for this GM. Some good picks, some washouts. Some good trades, some head scratchers. He's done better than many other current GM's over the same period of time. But in Montreal the only successful season is one where The Cup is raised. Good seasons and second round appearances don't quell the desire for a parade.

Look, this team wasn't really as good as its 9-0 and 9-0-1 starts in recent years suggested. And they're not as bad as their 1-6-1 current record suggests. Carey Price will not be an .886SV% for long. The team will not shoot at historically pathetic 2.7% for the season. Max Pacioretty will score goals again. The power play will revert to a standard 12-15%. The bottom pairing d-men have to and will be better--once they get Davidson in for Morrow, Schlemko returns, and Jordie figures out his game. This sucktitude cannot persist.

But there's no deus ex machina out there. It's gonna take hard work and better play from the best players. Can't win with .886 goaltending and pop-gun shooting. Those things are impossible to overcome in tandem. Price needs to be a .920 or better if they want to win 2-1 and 3-2 hockey games because they don't have the horses to score five and six goals a game. Even if he's a .915 they can scratch and claw if Max goes on a tear and the PP gets it in gear. But an .886? Steve Mason looks at that number and is like, Dude that's bad.

Personal accountability comes into play here for the guys on the ice. It's not squeezing blood from a stone to expect this lineup to be able to produce 3 goals a game with a goalie that can limit the opposition to two or fewer.

So to answer the fake dichotomy question in the OP: neither is immediate. Bergevin will ultimately go unless the team becomes a dynasty because that's the nature of the job unless you're David Poile.


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My question was not an attempt to throw dirt, not to gloat, and not to make this about Toronto vs. Montreal. I ask this question as a hockey fan in general. I ragged on Toronto for years and I'm a Leafs fan. As a Leafs fan that has lived through bad management my whole life, I know bad management when I see it.

You mentioned the homegrown talent Montreal has: Galchenyuk, Price, Pacioretty, Lehkonen, Plekanec, Mete, and Gallagher. How many of those players were drafted by Marc Bergevin? Galchenyuk and Mete. That's it. Bergevin took over in time for the 2012 draft. Where are the true top-tier talent? Price, yes, but Bob Gainey drafted him. In order to contend every year, you need prospects in the pipeline and under Bergevin, the cupboard is bare.

You mentioned "impact trades". Weber for Subban? Didn't work. You said it yourself - a successful season is one where Montreal hoists the Stanley Cup. So until Montreal wins the Stanley Cup with Weber on defense, the trade is a bust in that sense. Andrew Shaw for two draft picks? What has Shaw done offensively? Not much that I can see. Drouin is a top young player, but it came at the expense of the only top defensive prospect the team had in Sergachev.

Bergevin has the best goaltender in the world on his team and he has done very little to build this team into a long-term Stanley Cup favourite, in my opinion. The "impact trades" you mentioned have not resulted in the Stanley Cup victory that Montreal craves.

[RGM81]

That logic is horribly flawed. It's a team game. By your logic since the Preds didn't win the Cup with Subban the deal was a bust for them. Many teams made trades last year, are all of them except ones Pittsburgh made busts? Ridiculous at best, disingenuous at worst.

I've already mentioned the draft choice in recent years. When you draft in the 20's the success rate is under 50%. Look at the top picks of the other teams who have been in that range and see how many are in the NHL as impact players. Let's just go with 2013--Habs had McCarron at 25. Look at 21-24 and 26-30. You might recognize a couple names because they've all got some hockey cards but how many of those guys would you honestly say have a big impact? Burakovsky is the biggest name there and he's not exactly a world-beater. It's pretty easy with top ten picks but when you're a good team you get lower picks and it's a much bigger challenge. You don't get "true top-tier talent" at that spot unless you find some real diamonds in the rough and polish them into serviceable NHL players. That's a mathematical fact of life.



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[Leafsman]

@RGM81:

Here's an article about Montreal's start from reporter Eric Engels:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/c...017-18-season/

Thoughts?

[subban7677]

I had brought up the point about scouting, but Richard, you make some good points. They have drafted some good players in the later round, but apart from Pacioretty there haven't been any "franchise" guys taken in the first round (or any round) in a long long long time. McDonaugh was a good one, but I won't go there. Subban was another, but I won't go there either. Perhaps it's not scouting that's the issue, maybe it's development. Either way, something is not quite right.

[cardscardscards]

Price should come and join Condon, it’ll be a glorious reunification!