Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

Poll: WHY do People Foolishly Consider "Wins" a QB Stat?

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 18 of 18
  1. #11





    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,261
    SCF Rewards
    4,762
    Blog Entries
    2
    Country

    good topic if certain qbs were on diff teams would they have more or less rings then they have

    Indeed ... I always try to look at team sport athletes and think "what if". To me, the "best" NBA players, NFL QBs, MLB pitchers and NHL players are the guys that you would draft the highest IF you knew that every other player that would be playing with them is simply going to be "average".

    If that were the case no one in their right mind would draft Magic Johnson before LeBron James nor Bill Russell before Shaquille O'Neal nor Joe Montana before John Elway nor Tom Brady before Aaron Rodgers, etc., etc., etc.,.

    It's when people start factoring TEAM SUCCESS and ORGANIZATIONAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS into individual player debates where all the confusion and insanity starts.

    Every NFL GM with a functioning brain can look at Wyoming QB Josh Allen and Ohio State QB J.T. Barrett and say, "Josh Allen is more gifted, will be better in the NFL and should go much higher in the draft than Barrett", despite Allen's TEAM being garbage with a garbage record and Barret's being a potential BCS Champion this year, yet there are literally ignorant sports fans out there, who if Allen and Barrett happened to be in the NFL would say, "Hmm, I think Barrett is better because his TEAM has a better record" ... it's insanity and drives me nuts!

    Tom Brady is widely considered the GOAT NFL QB and while I don't agree with that I don't really mind it either as his resume is absolutely amazing and I can understand people factor "team accomplishments" into "greatest of all-time debates" ... but everyone with a functioning brain knows that Brady isn't even one of the top 50 most talented QBs to ever play nor is he the "best" QB to ever play. He's great at what he does where he's at but he wouldn't even be considered for the #1 QB taken in an all-time draft if ALL the other players on the team were merely "average".

  2. #12







    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    51,031
    SCF Rewards
    7,070
    Country

    I honestly feel it's idiotic to consider "wins" an individual stat and the fact that all-time great QBs like Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino, Kelly and Moon played a combined SEVENTY plus years of NFL football and combined to win a whopping total of ZERO rings while guys who will have to buy a ticket to get into Canton like Jeff Hostettler, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Doug Williams, etc., all won a ring, proves that.

    Didn't Hoss win a Super Bowl because he was the backup to the Phil Simms led team? The others were QBs on historic defensive teams (Redskins before my time....) which is basically the only other way to win a Super Bowl. You either have an elite QB compared to everyone else in the league or you have an elite defense. Just Barry Sanders isn't going to win you a Super Bowl.

    Either way wins and winning a Super Bowl are completely different. Not all guys or teams can win the big one in every sport. Some guys have it while others don't.
    Selling All My Cards Here------>Hidden Content

    Baseball Autograph and Game Used Only Trade Page: pwaldo.webs.com/
    //s123.photobucket.com/albums/o299/pwaldo/

  3. #13





    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,261
    SCF Rewards
    4,762
    Blog Entries
    2
    Country

    Didn't Hoss win a Super Bowl because he was the backup to the Phil Simms led team?


    Simms was hurt ... Hostettler started and finished the SB he won.


    The others were QBs on historic defensive teams (Redskins before my time....) which is basically the only other way to win a Super Bowl. You either have an elite QB compared to everyone else in the league or you have an elite defense. Just Barry Sanders isn't going to win you a Super Bowl.

    That's factually incorrect. Flacco and Eli were not elite and while their defenses were good they were nowhere near the best in the league ... Roethlisberger was nowhere near the best QB when his teams won rings and his defenses were not the best either ... Tom Brady was NOT elite when he won his first ring and probably not his 2nd or 3rd either and his defenses weren't "elite" either though they were quite good ... same with Elways last 2 rings as he was not elite by that time and neither was his defense ... just that list is TEN of the past 19 SB winners ... so less than 50% of the time a SB winning team needed a top-end QB or a top-end defense ... it's not about just a QB or even just a defense ... it's about the entire team!

    Either way wins and winning a Super Bowl are completely different.

    Both are organizational accomplishments, not individual accomplishments ... football isn't boxing or tennis, no one player wins games ...

    Not all guys or teams can win the big one in every sport. Some guys have it while others don't.

    I don't agree ... Dilfer, Johnson and Hostettler did NOT have "it" while Marino, Fouts, Moon and Tarkenton failed to have "it" ... swap Marino and Montana and Marino may have won 5+ rings ... swap a guy like Donovan McNabb and Brady and McNabb may have won 2-3 rings and Brady only 1 or so ... organizations not players win rings ...

  4. #14







    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    51,031
    SCF Rewards
    7,070
    Country

    That's factually incorrect. Flacco and Eli were not elite and while their defenses were good they were nowhere near the best in the league ... Roethlisberger was nowhere near the best QB when his teams won rings and his defenses were not the best either ... Tom Brady was NOT elite when he won his first ring and probably not his 2nd or 3rd either and his defenses weren't "elite" either though they were quite good ... same with Elways last 2 rings as he was not elite by that time and neither was his defense ... just that list is TEN of the past 19 SB winners ... so less than 50% of the time a SB winning team needed a top-end QB or a top-end defense ... it's not about just a QB or even just a defense ... it's about the entire team!

    Elway was a Pro Bowl QB his final 2 rings and Brady beside being a Pro Bowler in his first season led the league in TDs his second full season. If you are trying to debate that these HOF QBs weren't good enough or "elite" enough to win a Super Bowl well I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the debating because that's a pretty big hurdle to get over.

    I mean just go ask Packers fans this season if they still have a chance to win the Super Bowl with just Aaron Rodgers hurt. I mean he's just one player they still have a whole "team" left right? Yeah nobody is buying that.

  5. #15





    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,261
    SCF Rewards
    4,762
    Blog Entries
    2
    Country

    Elway was a Pro Bowl QB his final 2 rings and Brady beside being a Pro Bowler in his first season led the league in TDs his second full season. If you are trying to debate that these HOF QBs weren't good enough or "elite" enough to win a Super Bowl well I'm not even going to bother with the rest of the debating because that's a pretty big hurdle to get over.

    Neither were even close to the top QBs in the game and referencing Pro Bowls is meaningless ... for goodness sake Andy Dalton made the Pro Bowl last year! I have often said that there are probably 25 starting QBs ever year in the NFL that are "good enough" to win a ring on a dominant team, so of course young Brady and old Elway were "good enough" to win a ring those years but they were not even close to the top of their position so I would not consider either to have been "elite" at that time. And ... you're not even touching young Roethlisberger who played the worst of any QB in SB winning history and the other QBs I mentioned ...

    I mean just go ask Packers fans this season if they still have a chance to win the Super Bowl with just Aaron Rodgers hurt. I mean he's just one player they still have a whole "team" left right? Yeah nobody is buying that.



    Um, no ... that argument proves my point actually. Everyone knew that Rodgers carried the Packers and that the team surrounding him was not very good at all ... tv talking heads have been saying that for years. The current Packers are like the young-Elway Broncos ... they get carried by their superstar QB. There are TEAMS however that could still make a SB run without their starting QB ... the Seahawks, Panthers, Steelers, Eagles, Vikings (who actually are doing so with Keenum instead of Bradford) and Chiefs come to mind.

    Eli beat Brady twice in the SB despite being the far inferior QB ... Brad Johnson beat Rich Gannon, Russell Wilson beat Peyton Manning, Mark Rypien and Phil Simms beat John Elway, young Brady beat Kurt Warner, old Elway beat Brett Favre, etc, etc, etc.

    TEAMS wins rings, not individual QBs ...

  6. #16





    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Age
    39
    Posts
    3,924
    SCF Rewards
    5,772
    Transferred Feedback
    TCC (145)
    Country
    Atlanta Braves Washington Redskins
    See HollaMV7's Items on eBay COMC Cards For Sale

    The QB is the most influential player in any team sport and it's not even close in my opinion.
    Hidden Content - use the drop down box at the top left to view all my other albums
    Brian Orakpo/Sean Taylor/Craig Kimbrel Super Collector - I collect Lucky 13 Football RCs (04-07 all versions). Also like current Braves (Acuna/Albies/Dansby/Soroka/Strider/Riley/Harris/Fried, etc.), Mike Trout, Juan Soto, Roger Federer.

  7. #17





    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,261
    SCF Rewards
    4,762
    Blog Entries
    2
    Country

    The QB is the most influential player in any team sport and it's not even close in my opinion.

    I guess I'd say the most influential positions in professional team sport are:

    1. Whatever position LeBron James is playing
    2. Head Coach ... if it's Bill Bellichick or Greg Popovich ... no one else counts
    3. Star QBs
    4. Star Goalies in hockey
    5. Star Pitchers in Baseball
    6. Star point guards in basketball
    7. The broom in curling ... is that a position? Is curling even a sport or just professional cleaning of ice?

  8. #18





    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,261
    SCF Rewards
    4,762
    Blog Entries
    2
    Country

    Stephen A Smith recently went on a little rant about Jameis' W/L record which illustrates the point of my article perfectly, as much of the media, is just clueless as to how much of a team sport football is.

    Stephen A is one of the worst, most nonsensical, illogical and absurd of the bunch, as he constantly talks about QBs "beating" each other as if they participated in 1-on-1 boxing matches ... it's such a lazy narrative and so infantile that it drives me nuts.

    Jeff Hostettler did not "beat Jim Kelly" in that Super Bowl, the Giants TEAM beat the Bills TEAM. Eli Manning did not "beat Tom Brady" in those two Super Bowls, the Giants TEAM beat the Patriots TEAM. Sam Bradford didn't "beat Drew Brees" in week one this year, the Vikings TEAM beat the Saints TEAM ... yet, goofballs like Stephen A and his ilk just can't seem to wrap their head around such an obvious fact.

    Anyways, after Stephen A's absurd rant on Jameis 17-23 record, I sent him the following personal email ... let me know your thoughts ... was I too hard on old SAS?

    Steven A,

    You should be ashamed of yourself for your lazy and inaccurate reporting on Jameis Winston.


    Ya'll are killing him for his recently declining stats and his team's recent struggles when he was playing with an INJURED THROWING SHOULDER the past 4 weeks rather than "resting" ala Andrew Luck. Do you not remember some of the extremely ugly games Brett Favre had when playing through injuries to his throwing arm ... have your stat junkies check the tape and look at the numbers bro!

    Injuries to one's throwing shoulder affect one's stats ... who would have guessed? Come on SAS, you're better than your lazy hot take on Jameis suggests!


    Before the serious injury Jameis suffered in week 5, Jameis and the Bucs were 2-2 and a couple missed chip-shot FG's away from being 3-1 and he was on pace for 4,792 passing yards, 28 TDs & 12 INTs and had a 95.5 passer rating, numbers which were obliterating Mariota, Carr, Ryan, Newton, Roethlisberger, etc.


    He also had a HIGHER COMPLETION % and a LOWER INTERCEPTION % than both CARSON WENTZ and DAK PRESCOTT!


    By the way ... you do know Jameis is like 13 months YOUNGER than Wentz yet has 4,000+ more career passing yards and 26 more total TDs than Wentz right? Jameis is also much younger than Dak and is still just 23 like rookie Mitch Trubisky despite having thrown for over 10,000 career yards and 60 TDs ... don't be lazy Stephen A, do your research!

    Anyways, after Jameis got injured in the first quarter of the 5th game the Bucs season immediately went to pot and his numbers declined a great deal ... though even playing half the year with a bum throwing shoulder his numbers are still better than Matt Ryan, Cam Newton (i.e. the last two NFL MVP's) and other so-called "top QBs".


    And, if your come back to this email is to reply to me and lazily speak about "wins" which are a TEAM accomplishment rather than an individual accomplishment (remind me how many rings perhaps the three greatest pure throwers of the football: Marino, Fouts and Moon won in their 40+ years of NFL football ... and how many three nobodies like Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostettler and Brad Johnson won), I would say that while Jameis win percentage does stand at .425 and was .472 before his injury, the Buccaneers win percentage in the four years combined before they drafted Jameis' was just .250 ... Jameis has increased the team's win percentage by at least 70% and by as much as 88.9% (if you don't factor in his losses when he played hurt) since being drafted ... a kid who lucks into a great situation on a 9 win team (e.g. guys like Deshaun Watson, Dak Prescott, etc who get drafted later in the draft) would have to go 16-0 to increase his team's win percentage by a higher amount than Jameis as even 15-1 would be less of an increase than Jameis has brought the Bucs!

    Honestly, I feel you should apologize to your audience as you just parroted a lazy media narrative, failed to do even cursory research and therefore your entire diatribe was one based on ignorance.

    Peace,
    Jameis1of1

    ------------------------

    So ... was I too hard on good ole Stephen A Smith?

    Honestly, he has bothered me for years and I feel he is hurting professional team sports in general by his ridiculous "wins are an individual stat" narrative ... he whined when Kevin Durant signed with the Warriors yet it's because of people like him who look at wins as an individual stat that players nowadays would rather jump teams to win a ring than playing their best in their situation without complaint. The media's narratives actually drive results and influence player's viewpoints on things and to me Stephen A Smith has hurt sports ...

    If players all realized the greatest thing they could do is to play their absolute best in whatever situation they are in, and if those players could actually be assured that the media would credit them with the accomplishments rather than bashing them for not "winning" in a place they obviously are not going to win in, I believe professional team sports would be in a much better place ... but ... as long as there are "lazy crazies" like Stephen A Smith around, and players get bashed for the team around them not "winning enough" we will continue to see thin-skinned, weak-kneed players bouncing around looking for the easiest way to "win" and that's a shame.

    I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand ... a QB is something like 5-10% responsible for his team's success, that's it ... imagine there being two academic teams made up of 10 team members each who are all given an identical test ... the first team has every player score an 80% while the second team has 9 players score a 75% and one player score a 100%... OBVIOUSLY the player on the LOSING team that scored the 100% was the BEST out of all 20 people who took the test, but his TEAM still lost ... this isn't a hard concept to grasp ... but apparently it's far to difficult for Stephen A Smith to wrap his head around ... sad!










Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
SCF Sponsors


About SCF

    Sports Card Forum provides sports and non-sports card collectors a safe place to discuss, buy, sell and trade.

    SCF maintains tools that will allow collectors to manage their collections online, information about what is happening with the hobby, as well as providing robust data to send out for Autographs through the mail.

Follow SCF on