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  1. #11




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    Miller, before he passed, asked . in a letter to be taken off ballot
    for consideration. He should have been in long ago.
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    I didn't realize that about Miller.

  2. #12





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    @WizardofOz1982

    As a Cardinals fan, it kills me to say this to another Cards fan... But, Ted Simmons is borderline for the Cardinals HOF (IMO), let alone Cooperstown. You're spot on about everybody else, though.

    Care to elaborate why you think that? No matter what metric, old school or sabermetric, you want to use he's better than most of the catchers in the Hall of Fame already. I love Yadi but even Yadi isn't as good as Simba was. If he plays another 4-5 years he might get close. Other than the pinnacle of Berra, Bench, Carter, and Pudge it's hard to find a catcher better than Simmons was.
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  3. #13




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    Care to elaborate why you think that? No matter what metric, old school or sabermetric, you want to use he's better than most of the catchers in the Hall of Fame already. I love Yadi but even Yadi isn't as good as Simba was. If he plays another 4-5 years he might get close. Other than the pinnacle of Berra, Bench, Carter, and Pudge it's hard to find a catcher better than Simmons was.

    Not enough MVP support, never led the league in any significant offensive category (not enough "grey ink" to make up for it), inconsistent numbers in major categories (HR and AVG, especially), terrible postseason performance in his lone postseason appearance.
    Last edited by CardsAndPhils; 12-11-2017 at 08:07 PM.

  4. #14





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    Not enough MVP support, never led the league in any significant offensive category (not enough "grey ink" to make up for it), inconsistent numbers in major categories (HR and AVG, especially), terrible postseason performance in his lone postseason appearance.

    Again he can't help it that he played in the same era as arguably the top three catchers in history. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the greatest of all time. It's amazing that 3 of the top 10 catchers in history all played at almost exactly the same time.

  5. #15
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    Jack Morris shouldn't be in. His best attribute is that he took the ball every fifth day. That's obviously important for a pitcher but the numbers just don't stand up under scrutiny. He had some amazing Hall of Fame quality moments but the career is lacking. Everyone talks about him winning more games in the '80s than anyone else. He did. He also lost the third most games in the 80s. Nolan and Blyleven were both better from '80-'89. Stieb, Valenzuela (in 1 fewer season), and Clemens (in 5 seasons) were just as good or better. He was on one of the best teams of the '80s and piled up wins because of it, nothing else.

    Tommy John probably should be in. If forced to pick one of he or Jack Morris for enshrinement I'm picking Tommy John. His numbers are borderline (and probably just a bit short but better than Morris) Throw in the fact that he changed the landscape for pitchers though and I think it should push him over. He never missed a start after TJS. Let that sink in for a second.

    Alan Trammell was long overdue. He should have gone in first ballot. He was better than Larkin, better than Jeter, and can't help it that he played in an all time era for shortstops with Cal Ripken, Ozzie Smith, and Robin Yount. Just about any other era and he's the starting shortstop in the All Star Game for the AL for like 16 straight years. Instead he had to back up Ripken or Yount which isn't exactly a slight. He was robbed of the '87 MVP too.

    Ted Simmons is one of the ten greatest catchers in the history of baseball by fWAR, by JAWS, by old school stats, or by whatever other metric you want to use. His biggest crime is playing in the same era as Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, and Carlton Fisk. it's dumb that he wasn't elected years ago. It's ridiculous that he missed by one vote on the Modern Era Ballot now.

    Then there is the biggest snub of all. I can't believe they left out Marvin Miller who should have been in ages ago. Modern Era baseball isn't modern era baseball without Marvin Miller. You'd be hard pressed to find another single person who impacted the game of baseball more from 1970-1987 than Marvin Miller. To me, just on impact value, he's on the short list of people who changed the very nature of the game with Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, and Curt Flood (another name that should be up for consideration). I don't understand how on earth anyone could decide Marvin Miller doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

    You need to watch game 7 of the 91 World Series! I may be a little biased, but Jack Morris was a work horse, big game pitcher if he played in NY or LA he would have gone in years ago. Same with Trammell. Unfortunately Whitaker relationship with the writers will probably keep him out. As a Tiger fan i thought one might get in, never dreamed they would elect both. Pwaldo i fixed the title for you.

  6. #16





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    You need to watch game 7 of the 91 World Series! I may be a little biased, but Jack Morris was a work horse, big game pitcher if he played in NY or LA he would have gone in years ago. Same with Trammell. Unfortunately Whitaker relationship with the writers will probably keep him out. As a Tiger fan i thought one might get in, never dreamed they would elect both. Pwaldo i fixed the title for you.

    Debates like this one are part of what makes baseball so much fun.

    Game 7 was the second best pitching playoff performance I ever watched (2011 NLDS Game 5 being the best). I watched it on TV when I was 11 and I've watched it many times since. There is no doubt that it is the brightest moment of Morris's career. It's also the brightest point in an otherwise rather dim field.

    He had a couple of Hall of Fame level moments (Game 7, his 1983 season, and his no-hitter in 1984) but I don't think in totality he had a Hall of Fame career. His regular season career was solid. He was probably the 5th or 6th best pitcher of the '80s. From 1977 to 1994 he was somewhere in the top 10 probably but he was never the best pitcher of his era, and it would be tough to argue he was solidly in the top 5 over that time period. If you look at his postseason career, other than Game 7, he wasn't that great either. He had a career 3.80 ERA in 92.1 postseason innings. He averaged just over 6 innings a start if you look at all the games that weren't 1991's Game 7. With the Blue Jays in 1992 he gave up 19 runs in 23 innings of work in the postseason. Can't remember if he was hurt or what but the Blue Jays left him off the playoff roster entirely in 1993.

    I'm not sure playing in NY or LA would have helped him that much. Mike Mussina was a much better pitcher than Morris and he is having trouble getting elected.

    Honestly, Morris's comments to, and actions toward, Jennifer Frey probably did more to harm his candidacy than anything else.

    I'll never understand Whitaker's snub. If it's only because he was cold to the media that is some major pettiness right there. He's one of the top 5 or 6 second baseman of all time. He's easily one of the top 2 or 3 player snubs in the history of the Hall.
    Last edited by WizardofOz1982; 12-12-2017 at 12:06 AM.

  7. #17




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    Again he can't help it that he played in the same era as arguably the top three catchers in history. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the greatest of all time. It's amazing that 3 of the top 10 catchers in history all played at almost exactly the same time.

    I didn't even consider him against his catcher peers in my comment. I was considering him solely against the rest of the league. Comparing him up against Bench makes him look even less like a HOFer.

    Perhaps my bias is my own age, too. I never saw Bench play (was just a little too young), so I had to rely on legend, stats, and video. I remember the best parts of Carter's career. But, Simmons seemed washed up by the time I was paying close enough attention to judge.

  8. #18





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    I didn't even consider him against his catcher peers in my comment. I was considering him solely against the rest of the league. Comparing him up against Bench makes him look even less like a HOFer.

    Perhaps my bias is my own age, too. I never saw Bench play (was just a little too young), so I had to rely on legend, stats, and video. I remember the best parts of Carter's career. But, Simmons seemed washed up by the time I was paying close enough attention to judge.

    That's like saying Ozzie looks less like a Hall of Famer when compared to Ripken. The fact that two all time greats at a given position played in the same era shouldn't diminish either one.

  9. #19




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    Jack Morris shouldn't be in. His best attribute is that he took the ball every fifth day. That's obviously important for a pitcher but the numbers just don't stand up under scrutiny. He had some amazing Hall of Fame quality moments but the career is lacking. Everyone talks about him winning more games in the '80s than anyone else. He did. He also lost the third most games in the 80s. Nolan and Blyleven were both better from '80-'89. Stieb, Valenzuela (in 1 fewer season), and Clemens (in 5 seasons) were just as good or better. He was on one of the best teams of the '80s and piled up wins because of it, nothing else.

    Tommy John probably should be in. If forced to pick one of he or Jack Morris for enshrinement I'm picking Tommy John. His numbers are borderline (and probably just a bit short but better than Morris) Throw in the fact that he changed the landscape for pitchers though and I think it should push him over. He never missed a start after TJS. Let that sink in for a second.

    Alan Trammell was long overdue. He should have gone in first ballot. He was better than Larkin, better than Jeter, and can't help it that he played in an all time era for shortstops with Cal Ripken, Ozzie Smith, and Robin Yount. Just about any other era and he's the starting shortstop in the All Star Game for the AL for like 16 straight years. Instead he had to back up Ripken or Yount which isn't exactly a slight. He was robbed of the '87 MVP too.

    Ted Simmons is one of the ten greatest catchers in the history of baseball by fWAR, by JAWS, by old school stats, or by whatever other metric you want to use. His biggest crime is playing in the same era as Johnny Bench, Gary Carter, and Carlton Fisk. it's dumb that he wasn't elected years ago. It's ridiculous that he missed by one vote on the Modern Era Ballot now.

    Then there is the biggest snub of all. I can't believe they left out Marvin Miller who should have been in ages ago. Modern Era baseball isn't modern era baseball without Marvin Miller. You'd be hard pressed to find another single person who impacted the game of baseball more from 1970-1987 than Marvin Miller. To me, just on impact value, he's on the short list of people who changed the very nature of the game with Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, and Curt Flood (another name that should be up for consideration). I don't understand how on earth anyone could decide Marvin Miller doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.

    Spot on post here. I would argue that there are 2 or 3 Tigers I would have put in before Morris. Whitaker no doubt should be in and I would also put Bill Freehan and possibly Mickey Lolich ahead of Morris.

  10. #20
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    Debates like this one are part of what makes baseball so much fun.

    Game 7 was the second best pitching playoff performance I ever watched (2011 NLDS Game 5 being the best). I watched it on TV when I was 11 and I've watched it many times since. There is no doubt that it is the brightest moment of Morris's career. It's also the brightest point in an otherwise rather dim field.

    He had a couple of Hall of Fame level moments (Game 7, his 1983 season, and his no-hitter in 1984) but I don't think in totality he had a Hall of Fame career. His regular season career was solid. He was probably the 5th or 6th best pitcher of the '80s. From 1977 to 1994 he was somewhere in the top 10 probably but he was never the best pitcher of his era, and it would be tough to argue he was solidly in the top 5 over that time period. If you look at his postseason career, other than Game 7, he wasn't that great either. He had a career 3.80 ERA in 92.1 postseason innings. He averaged just over 6 innings a start if you look at all the games that weren't 1991's Game 7. With the Blue Jays in 1992 he gave up 19 runs in 23 innings of work in the postseason. Can't remember if he was hurt or what but the Blue Jays left him off the playoff roster entirely in 1993.

    I'm not sure playing in NY or LA would have helped him that much. Mike Mussina was a much better pitcher than Morris and he is having trouble getting elected.

    Honestly, Morris's comments to, and actions toward, Jennifer Frey probably did more to harm his candidacy than anything else.

    I'll never understand Whitaker's snub. If it's only because he was cold to the media that is some major pettiness right there. He's one of the top 5 or 6 second baseman of all time. He's easily one of the top 2 or 3 player snubs in the history of the Hall.

    Out of curiosity what pitchers would you place above him in the 80's?

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