Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 49
  1. #21




    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    644
    SCF Rewards
    1,951
    Country

    That's like saying Ozzie looks less like a Hall of Famer when compared to Ripken. The fact that two all time greats at a given position played in the same era shouldn't diminish either one.
    This Ad will be removed when you a member of sportscardforum.com


    When you put Ozzie up against Ripken, he DOES look like less of a HOFer. You're missing where I said I'm not comparing Simmons to Carter, Bench, etc. But, rather, comparing him to the era as a whole.

  2. #22





    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    563
    SCF Rewards
    1,093
    Country
    St Louis Cardinals Oklahoma City Thunder Kansas City Chiefs
    See wizardofoz82's Items on eBay COMC Cards For Sale

    When you put Ozzie up against Ripken, he DOES look like less of a HOFer. You're missing where I said I'm not comparing Simmons to Carter, Bench, etc. But, rather, comparing him to the era as a whole.

    I'm not missing the point. It's inane. Again, Simmons accrued stats and value over the course of his career that rank him well within the top 10 catchers of all time, regardless of era. You're saying he's not a Hall of Famer because he just happened to play in a Golden Era of baseball with lots of other talented players, 3 of whom rank above him on the all time list as a catcher. Looking at the era as a whole (as you seem want to do) Simmons was the 11th best position player of the era. He was the second best catcher of the 70s behind Bench.

    Difference of opinion I guess. I think if your stats place you in the top 10 players of all time at your position then you deserve to be in the Hall of Fame whether you were the best in your era because there was a dearth of great players at your position or you were the third best catcher of your era because the other two guys happen to be the greatest of all time at that position.
    Last edited by WizardofOz1982; 12-13-2017 at 01:36 PM.
    I PC Jeff Frye, Ozzie Smith, and Jeff Bagwell.
    Hidden Content - My collection website with galleries, need lists, and trade lists.
    Needs List:
    Hidden Content
    Trade List: Hidden Content

  3. #23
    Advisor





    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    63,809
    SCF Rewards
    992,659
    Blog Entries
    16
    Country

    Boo it screwed up the thread title. Should be ALAN and not lan obviously.



    Yeah I don't really get the reasoning behind how they come up with these votes. I mean some guys get in instantly and are questionable picks while other guys sit around for YEARS and are clearly better than others who keep getting in past them. I mean why is Alan Trammell an almost instant pick (he fell off the regular voting ballot last year I think) but Lou Whitaker is almost instantly removed from the ballot? They aren't that far apart in terms of greatness.

    @pwaldo

    Granted their stats are very close for their entire career. My question is the mvp talk as Alan is ranked 8 times to Lou 1. So that might be a reason voters remember Alan over Lou.

    Don
    Last edited by doniceage; 12-13-2017 at 02:05 PM.
    Great Prices on soft sleeves and top loaders!

    Standard Soft sleeves .75 each or (5 for $3), Thick Soft Sleeves $1 each or (5 for $4), Top Loaders 60 point $2.75 each (3 for $8), Top Loaders 100 point $4, Top Loaders 140 points $2.50 each or (3 for $7) Top Loaders 190 point $1.75 each or (3 for $5), Top Loaders 240 point $2 each or (6 for $10). Prices do not include shipping!!

    Check out Truebluecustoms on Instagram!!
    Hidden Content

  4. #24




    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    644
    SCF Rewards
    1,951
    Country

    I'm not missing the point. It's inane. Again, Simmons accrued stats and value over the course of his career that rank him well within the top 10 catchers of all time, regardless of era. You're saying he's not a Hall of Famer because he just happened to play in a Golden Era of baseball with lots of other talented players, 3 of whom rank above him on the all time list as a catcher. Looking at the era as a whole (as you seem want to do) Simmons was the 11th best position player of the era. He was the second best catcher of the 70s behind Bench.

    Difference of opinion I guess. I think if your stats place you in the top 10 players of all time at your position then you deserve to be in the Hall of Fame whether you were the best in your era because there was a dearth of great players at your position or you were the third best catcher of your era because the other two guys happen to be the greatest of all time at that position.

    You inadvertently made my point. He played in a Golden age with a ton of players that DID have the stats to warrant consideration. Put him in a weaker era with less talented players overall (not just at his position), and he stands out more (and likely makes it in). But, because of when he played (with a ton of great players at all positions), his contributions seem lesser.

    You can't compare a Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, or Nap Lajoie to the stars of today because it is a different game today. Expansion, more games, more travel, PEDs, younger players, technology, lefty specialists out of the bullpen, etc.

    In other words, like it or not, a player is judged by his performance compared against the performance of his contemporaries. Because of that, he falls short.

  5. #25






    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    20,328
    Transferred Feedback
    TCC(1874)
    Country
    Penn State Nittany Lions Kansas City Royals
    Twitter: @rtsjr1 See thebusfan's Items on eBay

    always shocked dave parker get no love numbers better then rice and he is in and played in same era

  6. #26







    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    45,263
    SCF Rewards
    22,601
    Country

    always shocked dave parker get no love numbers better then rice and he is in and played in same era

    That one I can explain. Rice got in because of the Boston Red Sox lobby/media. If you switched his place with Dave Parker the Boston media would have hyped Parker up to be some kind of god or something. Just a case of Dave playing for the wrong baseball markets.
    Baseball Trade Page: Hidden Content
    4 Sport Trade Bucket: Hidden Content

  7. #27





    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    563
    SCF Rewards
    1,093
    Country
    St Louis Cardinals Oklahoma City Thunder Kansas City Chiefs
    See wizardofoz82's Items on eBay COMC Cards For Sale

    You inadvertently made my point. He played in a Golden age with a ton of players that DID have the stats to warrant consideration. Put him in a weaker era with less talented players overall (not just at his position), and he stands out more (and likely makes it in). But, because of when he played (with a ton of great players at all positions), his contributions seem lesser.

    You can't compare a Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, or Nap Lajoie to the stars of today because it is a different game today. Expansion, more games, more travel, PEDs, younger players, technology, lefty specialists out of the bullpen, etc.

    In other words, like it or not, a player is judged by his performance compared against the performance of his contemporaries. Because of that, he falls short.

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on the intent of the Hall of Fame then. The top 10 catchers in baseball history all played during the modern era so that part of your argument falls flat. I'm not trying to compare him to Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, and King Kelly. When measured against Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Ivan Rodriguez, and the rest from the modern era he's the 9th best catcher all time. If that doesn't merit induction then you might as well close the Hall of Fame because it isn't accomplishing its own stated goals of recognizing the best players the history of baseball has to offer.
    Last edited by WizardofOz1982; 12-14-2017 at 12:03 PM.

  8. #28




    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    644
    SCF Rewards
    1,951
    Country

    We'll just have to agree to disagree on the intent of the Hall of Fame then. The top 10 catchers in baseball history all played during the modern era so that part of your argument falls flat. I'm not trying to compare him to Roger Bresnahan, Buck Ewing, and King Kelly. When measured against Yogi Berra, Gary Carter, Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Ivan Rodriguez, and the rest from the modern era he's the 9th best catcher all time. If that doesn't merit induction then you might as well close the Hall of Fame because it isn't accomplishing its own stated goals of recognizing the best players the history of baseball has to offer.

    I guess that is part of the disagreement. Was Simmons in the same era as Bench, Carter, and Fisk? Of course (and all of them were heads and shoulders above Simmons, too). But, I wouldn't consider Berra or Pudge Rodriguez (or Piazza, and Mauer that weren't mentioned but are still more deserving than Simmons) to have played in the same era. He's right at #10 all time with two current players (Posey and Yadi) within striking distance of knocking him down to 11th or 12th. Not to mention guys that haven't even started playing yet or are too young to gauge their value. Where will he be on that list in 20, 30, or 50 years? 12th? 15th? And, that begs the question... What is the cutoff for who should be in and who shouldn't? If you're sticking with top 10, then he's out.

  9. #29







    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    45,263
    SCF Rewards
    22,601
    Country

    Pwaldo i fixed the title for you.

    Thanks

  10. #30






    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    20,328
    Transferred Feedback
    TCC(1874)
    Country
    Penn State Nittany Lions Kansas City Royals
    Twitter: @rtsjr1 See thebusfan's Items on eBay

    That one I can explain. Rice got in because of the Boston Red Sox lobby/media. If you switched his place with Dave Parker the Boston media would have hyped Parker up to be some kind of god or something. Just a case of Dave playing for the wrong baseball markets.


    that and drug raid always hurt him

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
SCF Sponsors


About SCF

    Sports Card Forum provides sports and non-sports card collectors a safe place to discuss, buy, sell and trade.

    SCF maintains tools that will allow collectors to manage their collections online, information about what is happening with the hobby, as well as providing robust data to send out for Autographs through the mail.

Follow SCF on