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  1. #41





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    Hall of fame has been diluted for quite a while
    some example of players that might be questionable
    d Vance 197 wins
    lefty gomez 189 wins
    drysdale 209 wins
    Newhouser 207 wins
    e Rixey 266 wins 251 loses
    R Ferrell C, .281 28 hrs
    Maranvile .258
    Aparicio .262 83 hr
    you could add tinker and evers, some people think they are only in there because of a poem.

    probably plenty of others, different era, yes...but pitchers like morris, tiant, john, mussina, even Kaat had numbers
    comparable or better than some of these "icons". always will have a debate, which is good.

    Vance didn't get his start in the bigs till he was 31. He kicked around the minors for years before getting his shot. He only had 197 wins but he was one of the most dominant pitchers of his era without doubt.

    Rick Ferrell being in the Hall is kind of like how the ugly kid gets elected prom queen/king in those stupid teen movies. He was on the Veteran's Committee ballot and his teammates and managers lobbied for him to get a vote or two because he was a nice guy and it would hurt him badly to be shut out on votes. 1 or 2 votes somehow turned into election when multiple people voted for him, not wanting him to be shut out.

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  2. #42
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    The only knock for me against Newhouser is that his peak and most of the accomplishments you listed were accomplished while baseball was at war. He got hurt soon after the war and was never the same so we'll never know if he could have carried on that dominance once baseball was back at full strength.

    I agree but the fact is stats are debatable. A pitcher on a good team can have a better stat line by putting up stats than a better pitcher if they play on a less talented clubs. Hence, one stat or variable cannot be the deciding factor. Players cannot control these factors so you have to look at the big picture and try to make a argument. Problem is sometimes popularity. Like ability, market, come into play and those have nothing to do with their stat performance.

    Don

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  3. #43




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    There are plenty of context neutral stats out there to help compare eras. The greats still look great by those stats, as they should.

    Thank you for making my point for me. He played in a great era with great players at most positions. Look at his stats from that point of view and his numbers still put him in the Hall. From 1970-1983, his first full season and continued for over a decade, he was the 8th best position player in all of baseball in a golden era of baseball loaded with HOF inductees. He was the second best catcher of that era behind Bench. For the greatest part of two decades (1970-1988 which includes the years he was beaten down from catching) he was one of the top 20 position players in an overly loaded era of baseball.

    You're ignoring what I said about where the cutoff is. He's top 10 among catchers now, and realistically could be below that mark in a decade. So, two decades from now, where will he be? And, if top 10 is your cutoff (which it seems to be, from your past comments), why should he be inducted when he likely won't be in the top 10 for long? Also, his position is a defensive intensive position. More emphasis is placed on defense, and he was a (relatively) weak defender.

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  4. #44





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    You're ignoring what I said about where the cutoff is. He's top 10 among catchers now, and realistically could be below that mark in a decade. So, two decades from now, where will he be? And, if top 10 is your cutoff (which it seems to be, from your past comments), why should he be inducted when he likely won't be in the top 10 for long? Also, his position is a defensive intensive position. More emphasis is placed on defense, and he was a (relatively) weak defender.

    You've ignored me refuting your point about era the whole time. Top 10 all time is a guide nothing more. It is just an easy way to show that he is one of the baseball elite.

    Simmons was 6th all time when he retired and he was snubbed then. 30 years later he is 9th. He'll likely fall out of the top 10 some time in the next decade, especially if Posey stays behind the plate though that is looking less and less likely, and that is fine. At that point he will have been in the top 10 for over 40 years, about a third of the history of the game. That is more than a significant enough chunk of the game's history to be inducted.

    Falling out of the top 10 doesn't change anything because it is a living game. Frank Baker was once one of the top 10 players in baseball history. He isn't even in the top 50 now (maybe top 100, I haven't checked). That doesn't change his place in the history of the game, nor should it mean his removal from the HOF, just as a better player coming along 40 years later shouldn't change Simmons' place.

    Defensive minded catchers are lightly represented in the Hall so that is an odd point to make. Only 6 of the top 30 defensive catchers of all time are in the Hall and with the exception of Pudge Rodriguez they were all lauded for their offense as much or more than defense.

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    Last edited by WizardofOz1982; 12-29-2017 at 02:25 AM.

  5. #45





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    I agree but the fact is stats are debatable. A pitcher on a good team can have a better stat line by putting up stats than a better pitcher if they play on a less talented clubs. Hence, one stat or variable cannot be the deciding factor. Players cannot control these factors so you have to look at the big picture and try to make a argument. Problem is sometimes popularity. Like ability, market, come into play and those have nothing to do with their stat performance.

    Don

    Completely agree. I really wish Newhouser had stayed healthy so we would know what his career could have been.

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  6. #46




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    You've ignored me refuting your point about era the whole time. Top 10 all time is a guide nothing more. It is just an easy way to show that he is one of the baseball elite.

    Simmons was 6th all time when he retired and he was snubbed then. 30 years later he is 9th. He'll likely fall out of the top 10 some time in the next decade, especially if Posey stays behind the plate though that is looking less and less likely, and that is fine. At that point he will have been in the top 10 for over 40 years, about a third of the history of the game. That is more than a significant enough chunk of the game's history to be inducted.

    Falling out of the top 10 doesn't change anything because it is a living game. Frank Baker was once one of the top 10 players in baseball history. He isn't even in the top 50 now (maybe top 100, I haven't checked). That doesn't change his place in the history of the game, nor should it mean his removal from the HOF, just as a better player coming along 40 years later shouldn't change Simmons' place.

    Defensive minded catchers are lightly represented in the Hall so that is an odd point to make. Only 6 of the top 30 defensive catchers of all time are in the Hall and with the exception of Pudge Rodriguez they were all lauded for their offense as much or more than defense.

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    I haven't ignored you're refuting my point about the era. I just see the era differently. You say era doesn't matter. I think it matters quite a bit. It's kinda like owning the nicest house in a crummy neighborhood vs owning the crappiest house in a nice neighborhood. When compared to his 70s peers (not just at his position, but among all of baseball), he doesn't make the cut (IMO). He is the crappiest house in a very nice neighborhood. But, you have guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven from the 80s that are marginal HOFers but stood out because they played in a weaker era. They are nice houses in a crummy neighborhood.

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  7. #47





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    I haven't ignored you're refuting my point about the era. I just see the era differently. You say era doesn't matter. I think it matters quite a bit. It's kinda like owning the nicest house in a crummy neighborhood vs owning the crappiest house in a nice neighborhood. When compared to his 70s peers (not just at his position, but among all of baseball), he doesn't make the cut (IMO). He is the crappiest house in a very nice neighborhood. But, you have guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven from the 80s that are marginal HOFers but stood out because they played in a weaker era. They are nice houses in a crummy neighborhood.

    Again, he was the second best catcher of the '70s behind only the best catcher of all time and they weren't that far apart. Regardless of position, he was the 8th best player in baseball for over a decade including the entirety of the '70s, a period that includes more Hall of Fame players relative to era than any other era in baseball history. You say if he played in another era he'd stand out more? That's probably actually true at face value due to perception bias but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all by anyone who should understand stats, like sportswriters and fellow players tasked with electing people to the Hall of Fame. It certainly doesn't mean his stats are any less relevant or valuable, just because he happened to play in the same era as Bench, Carter, and Fisk. Should Duke Snider be removed from the Hall of Fame since he played in the same era as Mays and Mantle and doesn't look as much like a Hall of Famer?

    Who from the '70s makes your cut (into what I'm assuming is a very small Hall)?

    I agree with you that Rice and Dawson are marginal (at best) Hall of Famers but Blyleven is far from borderline. He's one of 8 pitchers in the history of the game to accrue 100+ fWAR and one of the top 10 pitchers of all time regardless of era. He can't help it that he pitched on crappy teams for most of his career.

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    Last edited by WizardofOz1982; 12-29-2017 at 10:16 AM.

  8. #48







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    I made a poll here since Jack Morris seems to be one of the more controversial selections to the HOF in recent memory:

    https://www.sportscardforum.com/thre...-Hall-of-Famer

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  9. #49




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    Again, he was the second best catcher of the '70s behind only the best catcher of all time and they weren't that far apart. Regardless of position, he was the 8th best player in baseball for over a decade including the entirety of the '70s, a period that includes more Hall of Fame players relative to era than any other era in baseball history. You say if he played in another era he'd stand out more? That's probably actually true at face value due to perception bias but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all by anyone who should understand stats, like sportswriters and fellow players tasked with electing people to the Hall of Fame. It certainly doesn't mean his stats are any less relevant or valuable, just because he happened to play in the same era as Bench, Carter, and Fisk. Should Duke Snider be removed from the Hall of Fame since he played in the same era as Mays and Mantle and doesn't look as much like a Hall of Famer?

    Who from the '70s makes your cut (into what I'm assuming is a very small Hall)?

    I agree with you that Rice and Dawson are marginal (at best) Hall of Famers but Blyleven is far from borderline. He's one of 8 pitchers in the history of the game to accrue 100+ fWAR and one of the top 10 pitchers of all time regardless of era. He can't help it that he pitched on crappy teams for most of his career.

    Blyleven was a poor example on my part, as I agree he was one of the best of his era.

    As for 70s guys that I, personally, think make the cut... Most are in, but a few aren't. I'm using the criteria of their career either starting or ending no earlier or later than '75 (so, they played at least half of the decade)... That's why there are some guys more closely associated with the 60s or 80s included here.

    In no particular order: Brock, Ryan, McCovey, Fingers, Stargell, Bench, Yount, Yaz, Rose, Seaver, Gibson, Palmer, Killebrew, Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson, Carew, Jenkins, Aaron, Gaylord Perry, Carlton, Reggie, Brett, Tommy John, Schmidt, Niekro, Sutton, Winfield, Eckersley, Blyleven

    The more marginal guys are Fisk, Tony Perez, Juan Marichal, Catfish Hunter, Billy Williams, Gary Carter, Rice, Grich, Darrell Evans

    Would it be the end of the world if Simba went in? Of course not. Is he better than the guys mentioned above? I say no. I'm not a voter, though.

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    Last edited by CardsAndPhils; 01-01-2018 at 01:49 PM.

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