The Official JAMEIS WINSTON Thread

[Jameis1of1]

Wins > stats. He won't be talked about with the other great QBs until he starts winning games. And that hasn't happened in a while.

Plus all his tantrums and moronic decisions aren't helping his cause.

Many players, former players and even analysts love his so-called "tantrums" as all they are, are an expression of his desire to win. Even Jason Whitlock, who has always had a severe bias against Jameis, said after seeing his "tantrum" against the Falcons, that he now loves Jameis and believes in his future and is fully on the Jameis bandwagon, as all that was, was competitive fire.

In fact, Jameis has NEVER cursed out one of the Bucs coaches on the sidelines the way Brady does on a routine basis. He has NEVER been accused of being a bad teammate like Ben Roethlisberger has. He has NEVER been accused of caring about stats more than the team as many QBs have. However, many other QBs get a pass from the media, and any outburst a player like Brady has is considered a sign of determination and desire to win, while any outburst Jameis has in considered a sign of immaturity ... it's all rather ridiculous and just a lazy media narrative.

As for the "wins>stats" thing ... that's also ridiculous ... unless you consider SB champion QB's Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostettler to be ">" than Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, Dan Marino, Warren Moon and Jim Kelly, five HOF QB's that never won a single ring, or Case Keenum and Blake Bortles to be better than Aaron Rodgers this year as those two QBs both have higher "winning percentages" than Rodgers did this year, your statements is ludicrous.

"Wins" are a TEAM accomplishment that have nothing to do with evaluating individual talent. HOF QB Fran Tarkenton had a losing career record until he was like 32 years old ... HOF QBs Sonny Jurgensen and Joe Namath retired with career losing records ... even the great Joe Montana who won a SB title in his 3rd year actually had a losing record in 3 of his first 4 seasons in the league!

By the way, Jameis' career win percentage, even if he loses the last game of the season as many Bucs fans hope will happen as they want a top 5 draft pick more so than a meaningless late season win, will stand at, .378 ... that is BETTER career win percentage through his first 3 years than the following HALL OF FAME or soon to be HALL OF FAME QBs: Dan Fouts (.200), Steve Young, (.227), Fran Tarkenton (.229), Warren Moon (.267), Troy Aikman (.368) and Drew Brees (.370).

By the way, there is a big difference in being drafted to the worst team in the NFL and a 2-14 laughing stock that had won just 16 games in the previous four years, like Jameis was, and being a late draft pick to a loaded team. Jameis turned a 2-14 team into a 9-7 team in just 2 years ... and even with this injury plagued season hurting his career win percentage, even if he loses the last game this year, he will have increased the Bucs .250 average win percentage in the 3 years before he was drafted by a whopping 51.2% ... in comparison in the year Aaron Rodgers started his first game, the team had gone 13-3 the previous season and 35-29 the previous 4 years for a .547 winning percentage ... in Rodgers first 3 years (which came at the ages of 25-27 unlike Jameis who's first 3 years came at the ages of 21-23) he had a winning percentage of .574 which means he increased the Packers average win percentage over the previous 4 years by just 4.9%, about 1/10th as much as Jameis.

Rodgers inherited a 13-3 team ... and proceeded to go 6-10 the very next year ... Jameis inherited a 2-14 team and proceeded to go 6-10 the very next year ... in fact, it took Rodgers 4 years to win even one more single game than the team he inherited won the year before without him, and he has NEVER won more games than that team he inherited won since!

If you don't think there's a difference between a later draft pick inheriting a 13-3 team and a #1 pick like Jameis inheriting a 2-14 team, you're kidding yourself. There are too many "lazy narratives" in sports and looking at an individual's TEAM win/loss record is one of them ... it's just entirely nonsensical.

If next year Sam Darnold gets drafted by the Browns, inherits an 0-16 team and helps guide them to a 5-11 record, that will be infinitely more impressive than if Baker Mayfield gets drafted by the Bills, inherits a 9-7 team and helps guide them to an 11-5 record and a playoff berth. Win/Loss records mean next to nothing in evaluating individual talent in the ultimate TEAM sport.

[WizardofOz1982]

Are we watching the same NFL?

Wilson started the year with a bad ankle/knee, played through a probable concussion which got the Seahawks fined, had his jaw dislocated and put back in place during a game, and that's just the major injuries. Throw in the fact that injuries have decimated that team on both sides of the ball and I'm not sure how you can say he hasn't played this year on a "garbage team". Wilson accounts for something like 84% of the Seahawks offense.

Mariota has been on the injury report most of the year with hamstring (multiple in separate weeks), knee, and shoulder injuries. He's been removed on a cart three times that I know of this year and come back missing all of one game. The "dominant run game" you're talking about ranks 16th in the NFL, exactly middle of the pack and his receiving corp is a joke next to Winston's. Football outsiders has TB's O-line ranked 15th in run blocking and 16th in pass blocking. Tennessee's is ranked 14th in run blocking and 14th in pass blocking. Mariota doesn't have a line any better than Winston.

Carr has the back. I hope he heals well and doesn't end up like Tony Romo did with his back.

Ryan has avoided major injury this year, agreed, and his stats reflect it.

Alex Smith leads the league in most of the categories you like to use to portray Winston as great but he's meh? Come on. You must not remember him coming out of Utah either. The concern back then was that he'd be too much of a loose cannon, free wheeling, gunslinger who had never played in a controlled offense to make it in the NFL. San Francisco tried to turn him into a game manager with their scheme to limit that. You can't throw the ball downfield if everyone is running 5 yard outs and 2 out of every 3 plays is a hand off or screen to Frank Gore.

You need to check the stats instead of listening to commentators that don't know anything more about football than their concussion riddled brains allow them to remember. David Carr got sacked 140 times in his first three years in 44 games started (4 of games in that total in 2003 he played less than a quarter combined from all four). Winston has been sacked 93 times in his first 43 games. David Carr got sacked 76 times in his rookie season. Yeah, almost as many as Winston has in three years.

You look at itty bitty sections of the stats without seeing the whole picture and all you pick out is the positives about Winston. If you look at the advanced stats and the big picture he's exactly in the tier I put him in. Matt Stafford is better. Matt Ryan is better. Alex Smith is better. Russell Wilson is better.

Could Winston become better than those guys and make it into that top tier of elite? Sure. He's young. He has the physical tools if they aren't destroyed by being sacked 3 times a game. He has one of the best receivers in football in Mike Evans.

Here is where I think he ends up though. Is Eli Manning one of the all time great QBs? If you believe he is then I can see why think Winston will be too. They're basically the same player if you take off the names and just put the underlying stats next to each other. They're comparable across the board in everything but win percentage. Eli Manning threw for a lot of yards (6th all time right now I think) and his teams won a couple of Super Bowls thanks to some luck. He's going to go into the NFL Hall of Fame when he's eligible. If Winston can keep it up he'll be right there with Eli in raw stats but if he stays with the Bucs he's going to have to buy a ticket to Canton instead of being inducted.

[Jameis1of1]

Are we watching the same NFL?

Wilson started the year with a bad ankle/knee, played through a probable concussion which got the Seahawks fined, had his jaw dislocated and put back in place during a game, and that's just the major injuries.

None of those injuries are anything like an injury to a QBs THROWING shoulder. Jameis also had a jacked up ankle and hand ... I didn't even mention though as they are NOT "major injuries" like a THROWING shoulder is.

Throw in the fact that injuries have decimated that team on both sides of the ball and I'm not sure how you can say he hasn't played this year on a "garbage team". Wilson accounts for something like 84% of the Seahawks offense.

I think you took offense where I meant none ... I specifically stated that Wilson, just like Jameis, has a bad O-line and a bad running game behind him ... however there is no comparison at all between the Seahawks defense and the Bucs defense and I'm sure you know that.

Seattle's defense is 13th in yards allowed and 13th in points allowed ... Tampa is 31st in yards allowed and 24th in points allowed ... there is just no comparison at all between the two defenses!

Mariota has been on the injury report most of the year with hamstring (multiple in separate weeks), knee, and shoulder injuries. He's been removed on a cart three times that I know of this year and come back missing all of one game. The "dominant run game" you're talking about ranks 16th in the NFL, exactly middle of the pack and his receiving corp is a joke next to Winston's.

I hope you're kidding ... about all of that. Even the MNF crew was saying how many QBs "play with a hamstring" ... Mariota took a game off because of it and THAT was his main injury this year, not playing about half his entire year with a jacked THROWING shoulder! And, as for the Titans run game ... it actually ranks 16th in yards this year ... Tampa's run game ranks 27th!

Football outsiders has TB's O-line ranked 15th in run blocking and 16th in pass blocking. Tennessee's is ranked 14th in run blocking and 14th in pass blocking. Mariota doesn't have a line any better than Winston.

Hahahaha, you're joking right. Ask any coach or GM which team has the better line and 100% will say Tennessee ... it's not even close. Again, the Titans are 16th in rushing and the Bucs 27th! Have you watched any Bucs games? I have watched Titans games and there is no comparison at all ... Jameis has to run for his life and his running backs, especially Martin gets hit in the backfield all the time ... and the stats back that up!

Carr has the back. I hope he heals well and doesn't end up like Tony Romo did with his back.

I wasn't negative about Carr, though some folks in the media are killing him mercilessly lately, which I think is wrong.

Ryan has avoided major injury this year, agreed, and his stats reflect it.

Jameis has a higher completion percentage and passer rating than Ryan ... despite playing much of the year with a vastly worse team and a bum THROWING shoulder ... I don't view Matt Ryan as being on Jameis or Wilson's level honestly ... he's not a guy that can "carry an offense", he a very solid QB and always has been and a guy that had one magical season when he had all-world talent surrounding him, a wonderful defense and an offensive guru calling the shots.

Alex Smith leads the league in most of the categories you like to use to portray Winston as great but he's meh? Come on.

I should have explained my "meh" comment I guess as it wasn't meant to be taken as an "Alex Smith is garbage" comment ... Smith has had a marvelous season this year and has been a wonderfully efficient QB for years ... he just bores me, so I simply said "meh" ...

You must not remember him coming out of Utah either. The concern back then was that he'd be too much of a loose cannon, free wheeling, gunslinger who had never played in a controlled offense to make it in the NFL. San Francisco tried to turn him into a game manager with their scheme to limit that. You can't throw the ball downfield if everyone is running 5 yard outs and 2 out of every 3 plays is a hand off or screen to Frank Gore.

Um, NO, just no. People were concerned he wasn't pro-ready but NOT that he would be "gunslinger" ... Alex Smith has simply NEVER had the "arm talent" to be a gunslinger ... he has always been a phenomenal athlete and very efficient, but NEVER even close to a gunslinger. Calling Alex Smith a gunslinger would be like calling Brett Favre a dink-n-dunk check-down artist ...

You need to check the stats instead of listening to commentators that don't know anything more about football than their concussion riddled brains allow them to remember.

Um, you may want to read through my posts ... I am a true stat-geek and have studied QBs for decades ... I shred most "talking heads" for their lazy narratives and the like ... you're not describing me with your statement in the least.

David Carr got sacked 140 times in his first three years in 44 games started (4 of games in that total in 2003 he played less than a quarter combined from all four). Winston has been sacked 93 times in his first 43 games. David Carr got sacked 76 times in his rookie season. Yeah, almost as many as Winston has in three years.

Carr was sacked 64 times in his 2nd and 3rd years for an average of 2.0 per game ... YOU stated Jameis has been sacked 93 times in 43 games ... that's 2.16 times per game, 8% more than Carr in his 2nd-3rd years. Yes, Carr got his brains beat out his rookie year but he actually got sacked LESS than Jameis in his 2nd and 3rd years ... and certainly didn't put up the numbers Jameis did, not even close.

You look at itty bitty sections of the stats without seeing the whole picture and all you pick out is the positives about Winston.

Completion percentage, yards per game, yards per attempt and passer rating are not "itty bitty stats" ... he has a higher completion percentage and passer rating than Wilson and Ryan this year despite playing much of the year with a injured THROWING shoulder ... that's a fact whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not.

If you look at the advanced stats and the big picture he's exactly in the tier I put him in. Matt Stafford is better. Matt Ryan is better. Alex Smith is better. Russell Wilson is better.

The above is what's called an opinion not a stat or a fact. The fact is that Jameis has a higher completion percentage AND passer rating this year than both Russell Wilson and Matt Ryan, despite playing much of the year with a jacked THROWING shoulder.

Now, you can still hold to your "opinion" that those four QBs are "better" while acknowledging that stat ... I have no problem with that. As for me ... I wouldn't say Alex Smith is "better", just "different". I have a hard time evaluating Smith as he has below-average arm talent and is a game-manager with a magnificent team around him ... I know his stats are better than Russell Wilson's but to me Wilson is infinitely better than Smith.

As for Stafford ... I'm a big Stafford fan as I noted in my previous post ... I wouldn't argue with anyone who thinks he's "better" than Jameis right now. I'm not sure I agree, but I wouldn't argue it as I view Stafford as an excellent QB and as he's SIX YEARS OLDER than Jameis, I would certainly give him the experience edge.

As for Wilson ... again, Jameis has a higher completion percentage and passer rating than Wilson despite playing with a jacked THROWING shoulder for much of the year ... however, as with Stafford I wouldn't argue with someone who still thinks that right now, Wilson is "better" as is certainly a better scrambler and as he's FIVE YEARS OLDER he also has the experience edge.

As for Matt Ryan ... sorry, I cannot agree with you at all. I have never viewed Matt Ryan as more than a "good" QB. He had one magical year but I don't view him as being anywhere near Jameis', Stafford or Wilson's level in regards to "talent" ... go back and watch the recent Bucs v Falcons game ... there is a massive difference in arm talent between Jameis and Matt Ryan ... it's not even close.

Could Winston become better than those guys and make it into that top tier of elite? Sure. He's young. He has the physical tools if they aren't destroyed by being sacked 3 times a game. He has one of the best receivers in football in Mike Evans.

I agree with all of the above as he has infinitely more arm talent than Matt Ryan, quite a bit more than Russell Wilson ... as for Stafford, they're pretty close as Stafford can really sling the ball though I do think Jameis has a but more arm talent ... and both guys are in tough situations playing for two bad franchises ...

Here is where I think he ends up though. Is Eli Manning one of the all time great QBs? If you believe he is then I can see why think Winston will be too.

NO, I do NOT view Eli as an all-time great at all ... in fact, I think he is one of the most over-rated QBs in the history of football. The guy will get into the HOF based, literally, on TWO games in his entire career. Had he lost those two SuperBowl's I doubt he would ever get in ... to me, guys like Romo and McNabb who may never get into the HOF were far superior QBs.

They're basically the same player if you take off the names and just put the underlying stats next to each other.

Except that they're not ... at ... all.

Eli Manning was TWENTY-FIVE years old before he entered a season as the Giants Q1 ... Jameis walked in as the franchise savior and QB1 from Day 1 and proceeded to top 4,000 yards as a 21 year old ... and then do it again the next year to become the ONLY QB in the history of the NFL to start a career with back to back 4,000 yard seasons. Eli Manning topped 4,000 yards for the first time when he was 28 years old ... Jameis did it twice by the age of 22.

In Eli's first 3 years he threw for 8,049 yards, 54 TDs and 44 INTs ... and was 25 years old.

In Jameis' first 3 years (one game left) he has thrown for 11,273 yards, 68 TDs and 41 INTs ... and he's 23 years old.

Jameis' compares to Peyton much more so than Eli, though he has much more arm talent and athleticism than Peyton ever dreamed of having ... in fact, below are Jameis and Peyton's first 43 NFL start numbers:

Jameis Winston 1st 43 games:

911-1,493 (61.0%) - 11,273 pass yds, 68 TDs, 41 INTs, 88.1 passer rating

Peyton Manning 1st 43 games:

912-1,506 (60.6%) - 11,118 pass yds, 76 TDs, 54 INTs, 85.2 passer rating

And, just FYI, Jameis also BLOWS AWAY Ben Roethlisberger's first 43 game stats ...

They're comparable across the board in everything but win percentage. Eli Manning threw for a lot of yards (6th all time right now I think) and his teams won a couple of Super Bowls thanks to some luck. He's going to go into the NFL Hall of Fame when he's eligible. If Winston can keep it up he'll be right there with Eli in raw stats

Um ... again, you're just way, way, way off. Jameis has 11,273 passing yards and 68 passing TDs right now ... and he's 23 years old.

Do you know how old Eli was before he reached those totals? TWENTY-SIX ... almost TWENTY-SEVEN.

Jameis literally has an 11,000 yard, 68 TD head start on Eli in regards to career numbers. I've been saying for three years, that barring serious injury Jameis will rewrite the passing yards and TDs record books and easily top Favre, Manning, Brees and everyone else. The kid is a phenom and has been smashing age-related records since he entered the league.

It actually cracks me up that you compare him to Eli as the stats don't back it up, the ages they entered the league are THREE YEARS APART, the college accomplishments are nothing alike, the first 3 year pro accomplishments are nothing alike ... and if you have watched them both play, Jameis has more arm talent, infinitely more athleticism, way more leadership and fire and drive ... and is a guy that's capable of taking over a game and carrying an offense ... re-watch the last Falcons/Bucs game ... you basically will never see a better game from a QB and I mean that literally, of the non dropped passes and "clock spikes" Jameis threw 28 passes and completed 27 of them for 299 yards, 3 TDs and no picks while under duress ... I have NEVER seen Eli play a single game like that in his entire career and I've watched a lot of Eli games.

but if he stays with the Bucs he's going to have to buy a ticket to Canton instead of being inducted.

I don't think so. Tarkenton, Fouts, Marino, Moon and Kelly all made the Hall of Fame and NONE of them won a single ring ... and Jameis' career numbers will shatter all of theirs imho ... and his "accomplishments" will probably easily eclipse Kelly and Moon as well.

[#1duckscollector]

Writing novels over a player who consistently will miss the playoffs...

And in case you didn’t notice TB will be in last place every year behind Brees, Newton, Ryan... ALL better QBs now and later...which makes all of your novels moot

[Jameis1of1]

Writing novels over a player who consistently will miss the playoffs...

And in case you didn’t notice TB will be in last place every year behind Brees, Newton, Ryan... ALL better QBs now and later...which makes all of your novels moot

Yay, my biased Jameis-bashing, Mariota-loving buddy posted again ... how fun.

Um, I'm not sure if you just popped into existence this year, but as recently as last season the Bucs were NOT "in last place" as they went 9-7 ... also, Jameis has a higher completion percentage AND passer rating this season than both Cam Newton and Matt Ryan, despite playing much of the year with a jacked throwing shoulder, so, yeah ... keep spinning those false narratives, you're always good for a chuckle.

[Rabs]

Will he eat a W today? Been quite some time.

[Jameis1of1]

Will he eat a W today? Been quite some time.

Hopefully NOT!!!! The Bucs needs the highest draft pick they can get, not a meaningless late season win ... I know Jameis hates the idea of tanking but I have a feeling the Glazer family (Bucs owners) have let the coaching staff know they WANT TO LOSE this game.

I wish the Texans would have beat the Colts today as that would have given the Bucs the 4th pick and a crack at drafting Saquon Barkely who is basically a perfect prospect ... but if they can hopefully lose today they'll at least get the 5th pick and probably either star DE Bradley Chubb or be able to trade down to a QB needy team like the Jets, Broncos, Bills or Cardinals and pick up some extra draft picks ... the Bucs need a ton of help on the defense side of the ball, as well as a new RB and probably 2-3 new offensive lineman! I do NOT want to see them win today at all!

[Rabs]

Jameis throwing INTs helps them lose! Smart!

[Jameis1of1]

Jameis throwing INTs helps them lose! Smart!

Just think, if he throws EIGHT today he'll finally have more than Mariota this year .... hahaha.

Seriously dude, don't waste your time trolling me ... it doesn't bother me and just makes you look silly. Mariota has been garbage this year and even I said I'm not worried about turnovers going forward with him and believe he can be an efficient game manager in the other thread ... I was sincerely asking if Titans fans thought having Cousins PLUS the draft picks trading Mariota could net, would be better for the Titans team than ONLY having Mariota ... I wasn't trolling even if you took offence to my question.

This thread isn't for meaningless game-day bantering ... I expect Jameis to have bad games from time to time ... Joe Namath threw SIX INTERCEPTIONS in a single game THREE different times in his career ... Peyton Manning also had a SIX PICK game ... and Farve had one in the playoffs ... but to come on this thread and just take little digs at Jameis ... it's dumb.

Read the entire thread and if you have a serious question about stats, historical QB data, etc., then ask me and I'll be happy to answer it.

[Rabs]

Not trolling. You said you wanted them to lose.