LEBRON JAMES is the GOAT - Jordan & Kareem 2a & 2b

[Jameis1of1]

Kobe still has a ton of support as the GOAT from his fans and most of his fans seem to despise LeBron and like Jordan way more as Jordan was the original Kobe and Kobe compares way more favorably to Jordan than he does to LeBron. In fact, Kobe is my favorite player of all-time and I was even able to buy my first house with cash after selling off all my Kobe cards which made me a killing, so I have all the reason in the world to support Kobe ... but even I can see that Kobe pales in comparison to LeBron. Kobe stacks up very well to Jordan ... he doesn't belong ahead of Jordan on a GOAT list imho but I do believe he had the more varied offensive arsenal, was a better pure scorer, obviously had more longevity than Jordan ... and had Karl Malone and later Andrew Bynum not got hurt, could have finished a perfect seven for seven in NBA Finals to even top Jordan's ring count. However, Kobe doesn't compare to LeBron at all. LeBron is the better passer, rebounder, man defender, team defender, efficient scorer, teammate, leader, and is more durable ... I mean, I love Kobe so, so, so, so much more than LeBron, but he doesn't compare to LeBron at all ... and neither does Jordan.

Saying Jordan is better than LeBron is like the old guys who said Bob Cousy was better than Magic Johnson ... it's just silly.

[Jameis1of1]

I hate that people take LeBron James for granted to the extent they do ... in my honest opinion, no one with either a massive pro-Jordan bias or a massive anti-LeBron bias can possibly watch a game like that and then say that LeBron doesn't compare to Jordan, yet that's what talking heads like Stephen A Smith, Jalen Rose, Mike Wilbon, etc., say ... it's just sooooooo ridiculous.

I will say something for Max Kellerman though ... he has always maintained that Jordan is the GOAT ... but ... he has started to add a little qualifier when he talks about such, as he recently said, "Jordan is the GOAT over LeBron, in that he had a higher peak (paraphrase)" ... what that tells me is that even Kellerman knows LeBron's resume through 15 years trumps Jordan's full career resume, so to continue to convince himself that he's still making an honest statement that Jordan is the GOAT, he adds the little qualifier that the reason Jordan is the GOAT is because he had a higher peak than LeBron.

However ... Kellerman is being extremely deceptive and is basically flat-out lying with such a statement as both he and 1st Take Partner Stephen A Smith have stated on the record that Shaquille O'Neal had a higher peak than anyone ever, including Jordan, and that he was the most dominant player in history at his peak, so even if Kellerman believes Jordan had a higher peak, it's a meaningless statement in regards to GOAT status as he doesn't even have Jordan higher than Shaq based on such a "peak" argument.

Likewise, the entire concept that one would base the GOAT debate on which player in the discussion had the highest "peak" is completely asinine and entirely disingenuous, as it's an argument based on one single year at best, and one single series at worst, rather than an entire career, which everyone knows is the only thing that matters in a GOAT debate in the first place.

No one in their right mind says that Shaun Alexander ranks above Jerome Bettis or that Larry Johnson ranks above Frank Gore on the RB GOAT hierarchy based on the idea that the two former players absolute peak was better than the two latter HOF'ers ... such would be an idiotic argument. The same can be done with players from every sport in every position ... no one is going to argue that Penny Hardaway should rank ahead of John Stockton based on his "peak value" or that Chris Webber should rank ahead of Patrick Ewing or that Grant Hill should rank ahead of Scottie Pippen, based on the same "peak value" nonsense.

I believe that Kellerman knows full well that LeBron has passed Jordan in the GOAT debate based on the two players complete resume over their 15 years in the NBA, yet he simply likes Jordan more and therefore has to find a way to justify continuing to claim Jordan was the GOAT, so he now uses the strange "peak value" argument.

By the way ... even the "peak value" argument favors LeBron ... but that's a debate for another day.

[Jameis1of1]

Most playoff games with at least 40 points, 10 rebounds and 5 assists over the last 50 years:

LeBron James: 13

Micheal Jordan: 4
Shaq O’Neal: 4
Larry Bird:3
Tim Duncan: 3
Wilt Chamberlain: 3

[Jameis1of1]

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Note: The above graphic only mentions points, something Jordan focused on and LeBron has never even cared about, and yet LeBron still bests Jordan in that ... incredible.

By the way ... as you see, Jordan had a LOSING 6-7 record in his elimination games while Jameis is now 13-9 ... again, incredible.

[70sbestcardboard]

WOW...I guess congrats are in order to your promotion to President/CEO/Supreme Master of the LeBron James Fan Foundation

seriously though....that's a lot of work for nothing. People who think Jordan is the GOAT will not change their minds just because you want to throw stats in their face. Perception is everything. When we remember Jordan playing sick and James leaving a Finals game because he was suffering heat flashes that eclipses any stat you want to showcase. It's too bad that I cannot simply say Jordan was the best according to me. Because the response will be 14 posts of stats rammed down my throat? No thanks.

I have a stat for you
NBA Slam Dunk Championship (Jordan 2 to 0 )

All in my fun my friend....although you do take arguing for the GOAT in all sports a bit too far.

[WilyWestbrook0]

Wow, this thread's obsessiveness and authoritarian air gives Jon Niednagel (JN) a run for his money in his treatise a couple of years ago on why Tom Brady is vastly inferior to Peyton Manning.

To summarize, "JN" went on and on and on and on that few can see the vast gulf between Manning and Brady because our brains aren't wired like Niednagel's BEIL/ISTJ "Brain Type." Imagine reading paragraph after paragraph about how the generic 50% or more FCIR/ENTP dominated populace of sports fans and journalists were unable to grasp that basic fact because their "right brain dominance" and "conceptual abstract brains" take things out of context and cannot analyze reality properly. Niednagel once insultingly told me, "few brains [like yours] like to deeply analyze, especially in the realm of reality, but it's the only way to separate truth from falsehood, fact from fiction."

I reminded him that he typed David of the Bible as his polar opposite (FCAR/ENFP), and that JN believes in a stringent conservative Calvinistic interpretation of the Bible. If what he says about types are true, and he also believes the Bible is true, then he's contradicting himself, because David would have been unable to see truth and fact with his Brain Type, and thus much of the Old Testament would have to be a fabricated lie, if we follow Niednagel's "Brain Type" logic.

Maybe you can debate JN on LeBron vs. MJ. He says MJ's BEIR/ISTP type will never be equaled by James' FEAR/ESFP type. I'm sure he'd label you a generic FCIR/ENTP and would just say again ad nauseam that you can't grasp reality (except that he's never asked Steve Kerr, Kurt Rambis, Jeff Hornacek, and other BEIL/ISTJ types what their own opinion on the matter is -- I guess he assumes all BEIL/ISTJs are exactly like him and would of course agree, their brains being wired to see and analyze logical reality properly. LOL)

Anyway, before even seeing this thread, I responded to you in the playoffs one. I'm quite over this debate.

[Jameis1of1]

WOW...I guess congrats are in order to your promotion to President/CEO/Supreme Master of the LeBron James Fan Foundation

I'm a Kobe "fan" and would root for him over LeBron 100% of the time ... I just know LeBron's the GOAT. There's a big difference.

seriously though....that's a lot of work for nothing.

Yet you feel the need to reply?

Regardless, it wasn't "work" ... I merely copied comments I'd made in the past on this site and pasted them into one new thread ... took about 6 minutes.

People who think Jordan is the GOAT will not change their minds just because you want to throw stats in their face.

Those who are open-minded and unbiased change their mere "opinions" all the time.

Perception is everything. When we remember Jordan playing sick and James leaving a Finals game because he was suffering heat flashes that eclipses any stat you want to showcase. It's too bad that I cannot simply say Jordan was the best according to me. Because the response will be 14 posts of stats rammed down my throat? No thanks.

You are entitled to your opinion as everyone is ... it would just be nice if everyone's opinions were based in common sense, logic and statistical proof, that's all.

I have a stat for you
NBA Slam Dunk Championship (Jordan 2 to 0 )

All in my fun my friend....although you do take arguing for the GOAT in all sports a bit too far.

I appreciate the humor ... as for taking GOAT conversations "too far" ... I can't help it; I love sports debates and GOAT debates are some of the most fun debates around.

[Jameis1of1]

Wow, this thread's obsessiveness and authoritarian air gives Jon Niednagel (JN) a run for his money in his treatise a couple of years ago on why Tom Brady is vastly inferior to Peyton Manning.

As I said to the recent commenter ... I merely copied and pasted statements I made on this site in the past that no one could refute and put them all here in one new thread ... it should give both LeBron fans and haters and simple basketball fans in general one thread to discuss LeBron's GOAT claim going forward ... I'm glad I made the thread even if people want to downplay it or personally insult me for doing so ... to each his own.

To summarize, "JN" went on and on and on and on that few can see the vast gulf between Manning and Brady because our brains aren't wired like Niednagel's BEIL/ISTJ "Brain Type." Imagine reading paragraph after paragraph about how the generic 50% or more FCIR/ENTP dominated populace of sports fans and journalists were unable to grasp that basic fact because their "right brain dominance" and "conceptual abstract brains" take things out of context and cannot analyze reality properly.

That sounds like a wonderful article and I'd love to read it. Please post a link.

Listen, I understand many writers, myself included, can come across as extremely arrogant know-it-alls, but the fact is that some people do dedicate more time to research and can understand such research better than other people. This isn't a controversial statement, it's just an obvious fact. You can put 10 people in a room and give them all the same research work to do and maybe 5 of them will draw correct conclusions from said while just 1-2 of them will truly understand the research in it's full scope.

I mean, just watch any episode of 1st Take with Stephen A Smith and Max Kellerman and multiple times when Max starts expounding on advanced analytics or even starts drawing common sense conclusions based on such analytics, Stephen A Smith's eyes will glaze over, he'll start sipping his juice drink, rolling his eyes and then insult Max for being more intelligent than he (Stephen A is), as if that does anything other than expose himself (Stephen A) as being intellectually inferior to Kellerman ... and THAT is what most of the general public is like. I honestly believe IQ has a lot to do with it, though no one wants to talk about such as they instantly frame such a statement as "racist" or some such nonsense ... but it's a fact that some people groups IQs are in the 80s, others in the 90s, others in the 100s, etc ... and just as it's mere common sense and not racist to say that African Americans are "on average" more athletic than whites and that whites are "on average" taller than Asians and that Asians are "on average" more slender than Polynesians, it is just a fact that certain people groups "on average" have far higher IQs than other people groups and that certain "individuals" have vastly, vastly, vastly higher IQs than other individuals.

Niednagel once insultingly told me, "few brains [like yours] like to deeply analyze, especially in the realm of reality, but it's the only way to separate truth from falsehood, fact from fiction."

Niednagel was 100% correct. Now, I'm not saying he was correct about "you" specifically but he was 100% correct in using the word "few" the way he did.

I reminded him that he typed David of the Bible as his polar opposite (FCAR/ENFP), and that JN believes in a stringent conservative Calvinistic interpretation of the Bible. If what he says about types are true, and he also believes the Bible is true, then he's contradicting himself, because David would have been unable to see truth and fact with his Brain Type, and thus much of the Old Testament would have to be a fabricated lie, if we follow Niednagel's "Brain Type" logic.

Now THAT is a great comeback Wily, bravo! I agree with you 100%, though I would say that David did not personally write much of the Bible, in fact only a very, very small percentage of the Bible as a whole and even the parts he did write are by and large personal writings rather than doctrinal or prophetic writings, so I imagine Niednagel may have thought he could come back with such a retort to you ... but ... I agree with you on that issue and think your comeback was a wonderful one; nice work.

I've never really read anything Niednagel has written but I'm interested to do so now ... I'm pretty sure I've heard his name tossed around in the past and I imagine I've read some of his stuff in passing but now I'm interested in "really reading" it.

Maybe you can debate JN on LeBron vs. MJ. He says MJ's BEIR/ISTP type will never be equaled by James' FEAR/ESFP type. I'm sure he'd label you a generic FCIR/ENTP and would just say again ad nauseam that you can't grasp reality (except that he's never asked Steve Kerr, Kurt Rambis, Jeff Hornacek, and other BEIL/ISTJ types what their own opinion on the matter is -- I guess he assumes all BEIL/ISTJs are exactly like him and would of course agree, their brains being wired to see and analyze logical reality properly. LOL)

I'd be interested in having a fun debate with him. And, he may be right about their brain types, but to say that brain type is a 100% accurate predictor of outcome would be insanity, so if that's his overall point, he needs to rethink that as it's completely illogical.

Anyway, before even seeing this thread, I responded to you in the playoffs one. I'm quite over this debate.

No worries ... I think GOAT debates are the most fun debates in sports but to each his or her own.

[Jameis1of1]

I'm honestly just moving on from the LeBron and MJ debate at this point. I've seen both players, admired both of their skill-sets, and I've seen people argue vehemently from both sides. They have their reasons. I've offered why I still lean toward MJ despite really loving LeBron's career for the most part

I'm posting this here too, as your (WilyWestbrook0) reply in the other thread was a good one, and my reply to you is a nice one for others to read as well as this shows two adults with differing opinions can always end a debate on a happy note rather than going crazy, hahaha

Anyways, I understand your point of view ... I just personally love GOAT debates

But honestly, isn't it more helpful and productive to simply say they are among the two greatest ever for the sport instead of trying to split them apart like atoms?

No, I don't personally believe so. I respect anyone else's decision to do so, but to me, that seems like agnostics who come to the conclusion that there is a "God" but won't go any further to find out exact who that God is ... I do agree that LeBron and Jordan are two of the three (along with Kareem) greatest players to ever play the game, but I like to go further and figure out exactly who the GOAT is ... it's just the way I am.

We can agree on that and leave all the other angles and analysis be.

Indeed we can but where's the fun in that?

I dealt with Celtics scout Niednagel for years trashing the "FCIR populace" for being unable to see "analytic logical reality" regarding both this LeBron and MJ debate, and the Manning vs. Brady QB one in pro football, and I wonder in the end: how important is it that people have the right answer to these questions?

Oh believe me, I don't think it's "important" than anyone even watch sports, let alone that anyone can logically prove who the GOAT of a particular sport is. I simply think it's fun to do so. I fully recognize sports is a smokescreen and an Orwellian prole-type activity and that the only things that are truly "important" in this life are things like loving everyone, caring for one's family and knowing and obeying the God that created us ... but ... sports is fun and debating sports is fun, so I like to do that know and then as well ... and I do believe doing so can keep one's brain "sharp" which could be considered relatively "important" at least.

Does it enhance our enjoyment of these athletes or the sport?

It does for me ... but everyone's different.

Do we get a sense of egotistical back-patting that we are right and the other fans are wrong?

I imagine the answer to that question for most people is "yes", but that's fine ... there's nothing wrong with that necessarily.

Anyway Jameis1of1, I do like a lot of your posts and reasonings, but personally I'm bowing out of debates like this from now on.

Thanks for the kind words and I respect your decision to "bow out".

I've engaged in a few on other boards and they became problematic, too.

Oh yes, they certainly can be as some people get way too heated, which is silly, it's just a sports debate after all ...

Just going to enjoy LeBron for the player he is right now and leave the Jordan stuff alone from this time onward.

Okey dokey, to each his own ... I just love debates ... it's just the way I'm wired I guess ... I may be a little nuts ... but I do respect your decision to "bow out" and be a peacemaker who just loves both LeBron and MJ and appreciates the greatness of each player ... peace

[WilyWestbrook0]

Hi, I'll address some of the Niednagel stuff since you were interested.

I first heard about his work with the Phoenix Suns in the late 1990s because my family and I were big Rex Chapman fans, and he pointed out that Chapman's type was wired to take and make clutch shots. I later discovered their web site in 2001 and got some of their books after that, my interest increasing over the years. I learned and memorized the types of most elite athletes from his site and books, along with other famous figures that he'd typed. I tried to persuade all my family and friends of it, few of whom showed a similar degree of interest or belief in the importance of it.

I thought his site and views were greatly balanced until around the 2010s or so when he became increasingly arrogant. More on that later.

Anyway, Niednagel's web site is braintypes.com. One of my relatives put the site on block awhile ago because it was becoming such an issue among my family, so I can't get the more direct article link for you, but I believe you can still find the article if you dig through the archives and do a search on "Brady" there for free, or if you create an account. He wrote it last year right before the Super Bowl, IIRC, but it wasn't the first time he went on a treatise on that subject.

He's also addressed the race and IQ issue before that you mentioned here -- he doesn't believe there is a disparity among the races, intellectually. It's one of the few rather 'liberal' views he holds. I guess he had to take a stand against it because he works with many minority professional athletes, and because he thinks IQ doesn't properly take into account the various intelligences of the "Brain Types" (the IQ test is biased toward abstract reasoning, which only the intuitive thinker [NT] Myers-Briggs types excel at). Oh, and there are many Calvinists who affirm a racial bias theory called kinism, too, and he probably wants to distance himself from that.

As far as his point about reality and facts, broadly speaking, yeah I guess he's right -- my husband thinks people are bad at that, too -- but thing is, he claims that it's inborn and there's nothing people can really do about it, hence his pompous remarks to me back in 2012 when I was having trouble understanding his typing of George W Bush and why Tracy McGrady didn't seem to have the competitive drive of fellow ISTP Jordan. So he basically says he's gifted in being able to tell fact from fiction, truth and reality from falsehood and imagination, and that I'm incapable of doing such, and that David of the Bible was incapable of doing such, and so forth. He also claims his Brain Type is more inherently moral than mine and others. It's like the Luke 18 Pharisee thanking God that he is unlike the sinner next to him, and Jesus points out that the sinner who acknowledges his need of mercy is more justified than the Pharisee who arrogantly looked down on others. Niednagel definitely arrogantly looks down on the generic FCIR/ENTP people that he is angry at God for allowing to overpopulate the world, and I think it serves him right that he has some grandchildren with this "morally inferior" and absurdly common Brain Type. I can only imagine the crap he's put his family through, and how his sons deal with the fact that their grandchildren are genetically inferior morally and in terms of being able to discern truth, per their grandfather. Maybe they should trade in their genetically and morally inferior children for the rare and special BEAL/ISFJ and BEIL/ISTJ people that they esteem so highly. *roll eyes*

Ok I'll stop now, this has been a tough issue for me to deal with the last few years because I was one of their biggest fans and they ended up just treating me like garbage because I didn't fit among their elitist favorite types. They've alienated just about everyone and their site hardly gets updated anymore because JN isn't in good health, and because he never did delegate kindly to others anyway. He had the makings of an interesting system, but handled it with little humility and little regard for others unlike him.