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  1. #11





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    I agree with Don, and in my mind it is pretty easy to see why he has zero (rounding down of course) love in the hobby First fact, he played on the Washington Capitals in the 1980's, like the Dead Wings era or should I say the Washed Up Caps era. Just not a popular team at the time, and until Ovi showed, even Jagr could not bring that franchise out of the hole they were in. If you take Gartner and put him in Edmonton at the time, wow oh wow would that be a different story. So hate to say it, wrong place, wrong time (oh and competing against Gretzky, Lemieux, Roy etc. at the same time).
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    So no bashing Mike at all, but there are so many more factors in play for "popularity and love" than just scoring goals. Even Ovi struggled with the hobby love until he got his name engraved in silver, and now look at where he stands....

  2. #12




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    Old cards only matter graded so Beckett prices are rough estimate of raw cards.

    I'm sure a Gartner rookie PSA 9 or 10 sells for more than $30
    Collecting NT /99 RPA's, Ultimate /99 rc's
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  3. #13
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    Over the past couple of years Mike Gartner's rookie card has gone down from 30 to 20 dollars.

    What did Mike Gartner do in the past 2 years to get his RC devalued?

    Here's are some other weird things I noticed....

    87-88 Mario Lemieux OPC $15..........Topps $20
    89-90 Brett Hull OPC $1..........Topps $5
    84-85 Wayne Gretzzky OPC $25..........Topps $4

    Those Topps vs OPC differences likely have to do with production numbers. The 89-90 Topps stuff all outsells the OPC versions. I'm surprised ahout the 87-88 Lemieux, but maybe the OPC is a double print? The 84-85 Gretzky is certainly a big gap, but that the OPC is more desirable isn't a surprise.

    As for Gartner - The card dropped because it's a card that few people care about. Mike Gartner was a fantastic player, who gets zero love in this hobby.

    The just make up the numbers and tell people they use data to figure it out. Really with all the cards out there do you think they could have ever really done that? No but they sure tried to push that narrative onto their readers until they were caught pricing cards that never were actually made....

    Pretty much this. I'd go a step farther, and suggest that it's not simply making up numbers - but rather a formula. The formula is probably based on some real sales data.... and if you look at the HI & LO columns both, I'd suggest that their range is often pretty good.

    Of course the formula doesn't work all the time, and they embarrass themselves by posting prices that have no basis in reality.

    The Jaromir Jagr OPC Premier card alsoo went down from 30 to 20

    ^^^ That makes no sense.

    I could debate with you all day with you why the Mike Gartner rookie card is a good card to collect for vintage collectors, but according to your profile your Immortal so what's the point I would just lose

    Gartner........Hall of famer ranked 8th all time in goals scored. More goals than Messier, Yzerman, Lemieux, Sakic, Bobby Hull to name a few, and also played less games than most of those players.

    I''d rather pay 30 bucks for a Gartner Rookie any day of the week over a YG who has scored 4 goals in 26 games for 200 bucks.

    Out of all the rookie cards from the 1980's he's definately top 15....maybe 10

    If I were ranking RCs from the 1980s... Gartner would fall into the top 15 too. Probably not top 10, but I think 15. Gretzky, Messier, Bourque, Yzerman, Roy, Lemieux, Hull, Coffey are all sure-fire ahead of him. The next tier of RCs would include guys like Fuhr, Anderson, Shanahan, Robiltallie, Gilmour, Neely, Francis, and Gartner. Specifically rank him where ever you want.

    You're right about Gartner, and how good he was.... but you're ignoring that being a great player doesn't necessarily translate into hobby love. You could probably cut the BVs on his cards in half again, and they'd be more realistic.

    Fact of the matter is: He was a great Washington Capital in the 80s, which are some teams that have almost zero collectibility. His brief time in Minnesota does nothing to help the value of his cards. He was great with the Rangers, but was traded before they won their cup - anyone interested in Early-Mid-90s Rangers players, are going to focus on players that won with them in 1994.... not players that were traded away at the deadline that year.

    He was a depth player with the Leafs after that, and then played two seasons with Arizona - the very definition of hobby death.

    He could have scored another 100 goals (making him #2 all time) and I don't think that would do anything to move the needle on his prices. He's part of a long list of HOFers, that the hobby just doesn't really care about. It's not that he wasn't a great player - it's that his 708 goals were mostly scored for teams that nobody has a lot of interest in, he never won any awards, he never won a Cup. There's nothing about his career that draws people to him, so his value is much lower than (IMO, inferior) players from the same era.

  4. #14




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    If someone has a clean Gartner rookie available, I'm interested!
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  5. #15




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    Gartner would be more popular if he hadn't shaved the moustache.

  6. #16




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    Don't listen to these mean people Mikey. You'll always have a home with me.






  7. #17
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    Those are nice and I always loved the unscratched versions when you can find them.

    DON
    Great Prices on soft sleeves and top loaders!

    Standard Soft sleeves .75 each , Thick Soft Sleeves $1 each, Top Loaders 60 point $2.75 each, Top Loaders 100 point $4, Top Loaders 140 points $2.50 each, Top Loaders 190 point $1.75 each, Top Loaders 240 point $2 each. Prices do not include shipping!!

  8. #18




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    how does psa grade 1980-81 topps

    do scratched cards get lower grades?

  9. #19





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    Here is my 10 cents....

    Baaaaaaaaaaaaack in the early 90's, it is said that Beckett would have card shops and card show vendors send in actual sales. At some point, I think that sales data actually was reflected by the Beckett price. From early on Beckett acknowledged variability in the 'value' of a card based on region: Gretzky cards were valuable all over, but Rick Vaive cards were really only valuable in Toronto. To this, local sellers had reported elevated sales data not necessarily based on player performance, but on fan affinity. It happens today - Gino Odjick or Ethan Bear are examples of players who will never get a HHOF vote, but who's adoring fans (in this case, a lot of them love these players because of their First Nations and Inuit heritage) will pay a premium regardless of play.

    The Gretzky trade, eBay, Upper Deck High Series French, the Stanley Cup Hologram, Eric Lindros, Pat Falloon, Todd Harvey and a number of other strange things from 1987-1994 changed hockey and the sales of its cards. Suddenly the rookie card was worshiped to incredible heights it had never been before. Gone (or on their way out) were the set collectors, replaced by the insert hunters and the crash-numbered addicts. Hockey card collecting was moving from a large unified block of behavior with small degrees of variation to many smaller niche communities who specialized in certain things - both of which you can see today in the YG set collectors, Tim Horton's Set collectors, player collectors, McDavid hoarders, pack crackers, graders, and like me, team collectors (Red Deer Rebels BABY!!!!).

    SO what does this have to do with Beckett. Well, suddenly, depending on what community you were in, the value of a sports card could swing greatly. The dawn of online sales platforms made sourcing cards from an advantageous supply and demand ratio source much easier. Back in the old days you had to go down to your local card shop and thumb through the boxes, crack packs, or use mail order catalogs (yep, not kidding) to find cards. Now you could just click and search - online sales platforms became the great card shop we all could use. I first noticed that Beckett values seemed to be a little coooooky once I started to go to lots and lots of card shows. First, everyone marked cards at either the Beckett high price or some sort of premium based on the Beckett high price (remember when jersey cards were worth 2X if they were multicolor?). Beckett prices were sort of a starting point of a conversation.... we knew that a Gretzky something would be worth more than a Lemieux something, but a Sakic something would be worth about the same as an Yzerman and Messier something.... ratios began to appear. I am not going to say that Beckett began to price sets on an algorithm like this, but it seems odd that price sales data would come out the next (or same) month after a set was released … right down to the 15 cent semistars. Was it a fair approximation of the 'value' of a card? I mean... maybe.... nobody really goes to a card show hoping to sell 100 copies of a 5 cent card for $5 (or even $1 for that matter). Beckett just couldn't keep up. This is true of all the other print card price guides ... even spilling into non-sports (Skrye being the best example). Confidence further began to fall for Beckett prices when the monthly would disagree with the online, the quarterly (the chubby beckett) and the yearly (the Biiiig Beckett) by so much that all you could do is shake your head. Sometimes even within a set cards prices didn't make sense (why is the base card worth $5 when the 'three a box' parallel worth 0.75x?}. Are 900 copies of the 1990-91 Wayne Gretzky base card worth the same as a Gretzky OPC RC? Suddenly worth seemed more subjective than most casual collectors were comfortable with.


    So what to do now? eBay sales still have the reputation of being 'fire sale' low.... except for graded stuff or rookies. Maybe the odd super rare card. If you don't see eBay as the worlds card shop, you are just not paying attention. So does that make eBay the 'price guide'? I would say yes for cards that are commonly traded. Most #1 draft pick YG cards are bought and sold TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TIMES within the first six months of the UD1 or UD2 release. Sure, there is some variability ($97 vs $120) and cards will appreciate or depreciate based on a number of factors (player's performance, what team they play for [I am looking at you Toronto] or even fame based outside of hockey [hello PK Subban!]). It is complex and subtle.

    I buy a lot of collections. When I meet with someone, I get them to tell me about their collection, why they amassed it, and what they think it is worth. I tell them what I think I will be able to 'quick sell' the collection for on eBay, what I think I could 'slow sell' it for at a show, and reasonably what sort of margins I am looking to make in order for the purchase to make sense to me. I often split the common stuff from the good stuff. Common cards, $20-$30 a 4 row box all day long. YGs.... other than the top 10 or 15 guys.... maybe $0.50 unless it is from within 3 years of the present time (and then it is $0.75). The problem I have is when the Beckett comes out.... and the collector has spent HOURS and HOURS meticulously pricing out every base card, sorting them into set, number, condition, and what the phase the moon was in when the card was acquired from a pack. I have walked away from about 25% of the possible collection purchases because of this. The only exception is Red Deer Rebels cards - I will pay market to above market value for them because I collect them. It is not a business for me, but a PC. They come to my house never to be seen on the open market again (lol). For the rest of the 99.999% of hockey cards out there, it is a business... and if I am not able to make 20-30% on my investment in a reasonable period of time, I just am not interested. Sorry. If I were acquiring cards for other purposes (for sets, or for a gift, etc) the price is based off of a different value appraisal.



    So in the long and short of it, I don't use Beckett for anything more than checklist purposes and to get a relative idea of what the top YG is thought by Beckett to be valued at compared to others from that set. I have said that Beckett is full of ™™™™ for years, and I would stand by that because of all the empirical and anecdotal evidence I have seen. I also think that is a fools errand to price a card for all markets. Lets take those boxes of commons I will buy for $20-$30.... I can do that because I am selling them for about 25% more to a wholesaler. He then sells them in a product to a major retail chain. So to me, I don't want the base cards other than they have an instrumental utility as a way to fill a standing order. If I didn't have my client, I wouldn't have a storage unit full of a couple million base cards waiting until I can make my next multi-pallet shipment. Do I flip through Beckett to see some of the articles when I am walking through Walmart? Sure. I have a nostalgia for the 'holy book' of hockey... I still pick up some of the early guides, magazines, and newspapers when I can just to read through and see what the 'best' advice was in the day.

    So there really is nothing wrong with using Beckett as a price guide - it is simple, has a value to it's name (mostly to super casual collectors) and gives the impression that a card has one value across all markets. If you want to collect at that level, go ahead. If you want to jump into the waters of eBay, trade shows, trade night, and the evil empire that is wholesale and being a Diamond Dealer.... well.... make sure to bring your Bat-Shark-Spray.
    Always looking for high end Red Deer Rebels Cards and team issued items!

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  10. #20




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    Over the past couple of years Mike Gartner's rookie card has gone down from 30 to 20 dollars.

    What did Mike Gartner do in the past 2 years to get his RC devalued?

    Here's are some other weird things I noticed....

    87-88 Mario Lemieux OPC $15..........Topps $20
    89-90 Brett Hull OPC $1..........Topps $5
    84-85 Wayne Gretzzky OPC $25..........Topps $4

    Beckett is full of crap and they straight up lie and have lied about how they determine their card values and I'll get into that after I explain why the examples you used are priced they way they are.

    The cards in bold are valued that way because they're DP's. The 84/85 Topps set had a TON of DP's, unfortunately the Gretzky was among them and of course the 89/90 Topps set was scarcer than the OPC set for the first time, and I believe the 87/88 OPC Lemieux is a DP as well, which is pretty bizarre considering there aren't many DP OPC cards..

    As far as Beckett and their stupid prices. Well, they used to claim they got their card values via the reader survey which was included in every Beckett back in the day and data collected from card shows and card shops. That seemed all fine and dandy and made sense and that method was rarely criticized, however when eBay came around eBay totally contradicted Beckett's findings considering eBay is the ultimate survey - it's a real time market place that documents what collectors are paying for a particular card and Beckett's assessed values aren't even CLOSE to eBay... In Beckett some cards are valued way too high and some are valued way too low, and rarely does Beckett get it right.... So I have absolutely no idea what method Beckett is using to determine value? I mean I have read numerous theories and since eBay contradicted their methods Beckett has kept their yaps closed about how they determine their assessed values...

    Beckett is just ridiculous, I remember looking up UD Portraits when I first got back into the hobby and they had Ovechkin and Crosby's UD Portraits valued at $25 when in reality that card sells for no more than 2 bucks IF you're lucky enough to sell one, so yea - for the most part all of their assessed values for modern cards are way off.... The truth is that a card is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it...

    And look, so what if Beckett lists a card and the card goes up or down in value because the majority of sane collectors and dealers gave up on using Beckett as a price guide a long time ago. I mean Beckett is great for a reference, and I do enjoy reading their articles and articles from their contributors but their assessed values are a flipping joke..

    The funniest thing is that eBay if they wanted to could put Beckett completely out of business - at least as a price guide if eBay made a few additional functions and added a box that you could check that would give users expanded data such as the average sales price for a particular card over a period of time determined by the user, along with the average auction starting price. That and eBay sellers should be able to select a raw cards grade using either the traditional grading method or on a 1-10 scale or even 1-100 just so interested parties would have access to extended data... I mean no doubt eBay is an excellent tool for collectors but there is room for improvement and innovation to make the site even more useful... Now obviously eBay doesn't realize their site is an excellent tool with lots of data to determine what a particular item is valued at - they just view themselves as a marketplace that provides a platform for people to sell unwanted items ... I mean I'm no computer programmer however I think a 3rd party website could collect eBay data and use it to provide expanded data like the aforementioned I just posted.

    BUT as far as Beckett goes I will say this tho - I LOVE reading older Beckett's from every sport and reading just how much the hobby has changed since the early 90's, I mean at times it can be absolutely hilarious... Just the other day I was reading how "revolutionary" Pro Set was, and how Pro Set was the new hottest product in the hobby, then of course a few issues later they did a whole expose on how terrible Pro Set was and it took them 3 pages to point out all of the errors.. Of course reading their predictions/projections all of these years later is just fantastic because Beckett, their contributors and their readers were wrong - extremely wrong more than not... My favorite section of older Becketts tho has to be "Readers Write In" where Beckett readers send in their .02 cents on various hobby related issues and in many cases expose their epic stupidity, of course there were also many astute readers as well that made fine points and contributions .. I really should start posting some of the stuff from early 90's Becketts because some of this stuff is just hilarious, fascinating, stupid, entertaining and interesting all at the same time.. Thank God a few years back I had the foresight to buy a ton of early 90's Becketts because they're worth every penny I paid for them, and believe it or not they're super cheap I mean for a few bucks you can get a nice stack of issues - I have several huge stacks of them, I probably have at least 100 between the 4 major sports, I also have quite a few issues of "Baseball Card Price Guide Monthly" from the 80's which are great too, they actually come with cards inserted into the issue as well but that publication is a bit more "based" than Beckett..

    I do have a question for some of the older collectors tho. If you collected back in the mid 80's or even before and you were an adult - how did you value cards or know what a card was worth?? I know Beckett had their annual price guide sometimes referred to as "the bible" and those have been published since I think 1983, perhaps a little longer, so I know that was a tool... I mean to be honest I would love to know about the hobby from the 70's into the mid 80's, I know collecting cards as was a "thing" back then and collectors would buy and sell them but I would love to know how prices were determined.. Because I know around 1980 the hobby saw it's first "boom" that and cards were starting to be recognized as something of value that could be considered an investment.... I find the early days of collecting as an investment to be interesting and fascinating...

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