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  1. #1

    Non-Christian Historical Accounts of Jesus' Existence

    I am posting these to show archeological and historical accounts of Jesus actually existing on planet Earth. These are from non-Christians so that there is no inclination for them to "lead people to do what they want them to do".

    So, after we can accept that Jesus existed as a historical person, there are only 3 options we have. When He says He is the Son of God, we can accept this as either:

    1. He is a liar

    2. He is crazy

    3. He is actually telling the truth

    These are your choices, like them or not......



    Flavius Josephus -


    Flavius Josephus (c. 37–c. 100), a Jew and Roman citizen who worked under the patronage of the Flavians, wrote the Antiquities of the Jews in 93 C.E.. In these works, Jesus is mentioned twice.......

    1. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.


    2. Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."

    Pliny the Younger -

    Pliny the Younger, the provincial governor of Pontus and Bithynia, wrote to Emperor Trajan c. 112 concerning how to deal with Christians, who refused to worship the emperor, and instead worshiped "Christus".

    Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshiped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.[60]

    Charles Guignebert, who does not doubt that Jesus of the Gospels lived in Gallilee in the first century, nevertheless dismisses this letter as acceptable historical evidence: "Only the most robust credulity could reckon this assertion as admissible evidence for the historicity of Jesus"

    Tacitus -

    Main article: Tacitus on Christ
    Tacitus (c. 56–c. 117), writing c. 116, included in his Annals a mention of Christianity and "Christus", the Latinized Greek translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah". In describing Nero's persecution of this group following the Great Fire of Rome c. 64, he wrote:

    Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius 14-37 at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.

    Mara bar Sarapion -

    The pagan philosopher Mara bar Sarapion wrote a letter to his son in which he mentions Jesus as the wise king of the Jews.[79] Mara was a Syrian Stoic.[79] He describes the fall of Jerusalem as the gods' punishment for the Jews having killed Jesus.[79] Mara includes Jesus as one of three wise men, along with Socrates and Pythagoras, who were killed and whose deaths were met with divine retaliation.[79] Jesus is not named in the letter but referred to as the Jews' "wise king."[79] Mara refers to Jesus as primarily a lawgiver, with no mention of his resurrection.

    Thallus -

    Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, mentioned Thallus. Thus:

    On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.

    Lucian -

    Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:

    The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day — the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws



    Jewish records -

    Main article: Yeshu
    The Babylonian Talmud includes a few rare references to Jesus using the terms "Yeshu," "Yeshu ha-Notzri," "ben Satda," and "ben Pandera." These references probably date back to the Tannaitic period period (70 to 200).[79] One important reference relates the trial and execution of Jesus and his disciples.[79] It includes this text:

    It is taught: On the eve of Passover they hung Yeshu and the crier went forth for forty days beforehand declaring that "[Yeshu] is going to be stoned for practicing witchcraft, for enticing and leading Israel astray. Anyone who knows something to clear him should come forth and exonerate him." But no one had anything exonerating for him and they hung him on the eve of Passover. Ulla said: Would one think that we should look for exonerating evidence for him? He was an enticer and G-d said (Deuteronomy 13:9) "Show him no pity or compassion, and do not shield him." Yeshu was different because he was close to the government.[87]

    These early references to Jesus have little historical information independent from the gospels, but they do seem to reflect the historical Jesus as one who had disciples and was crucified during Passover.[79] They reflect hostility toward Jesus among the rabbis.[79] The story of Jesus' trial asserts that Jesus was guilty of capital crime and defends the court against the early Christian criticism that Jesus' trial had been hasty.[79] Another aspect of this record is that varies dramatically from the records n the gospel- instead of twelve disciples, there are five and only one name, that of Matai, even resembles those of the disciples in the gospels. Other differences include hanging instead of crucificxion, a call for witnesses to his defence and the disciples all being sentenced to death after their own trials

    It is taught: Yeshu had five disciples - Matai, Nekai, Netzer, Buni, and Todah. They brought Matai [before the judges]. He said to them: Will Matai be killed? It is written (Psalm 42:2) "When [=Matai] shall (I) come and appear before G-d." They said to him: Yes, Matai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 41:5) "When [=Matai] shall (he) die and his name perish." They brought Nekai. He said to them: Will Nekai be killed? It is written (Exodus 23:7) "The innocent [=Naki] and the righteous you shall not slay." They said to him: Yes, Nekai will be killed as it is written (Psalm 10:8) "In secret places he slay the innocent [=Naki]." They brought Netzer. He said to them: Will Netzer be killed? It is written (Isaiah 11:1) "A branch [=Netzer] shall spring up from his roots." They said to him: Yes, Netzer will be killed as it is written (Isaiah 14:19) "You are cast forth out of your grave like an abominable branch [=Netzer]." They brought Buni. He said to them: Will Buni be killed? It is written (Exodus 4:22) "My son [=Beni], my firstborn, Israel." They said to him: Yes, Buni will be killed as it is written (Exodus 4:23) "Behold, I slay your son [=Bincha] your firstborn." They brought Todah. He said to them: Will Todah be killed? It is written (Psalm 100:1) "A Psalm for thanksgiving [=Todah]." They said to him: Yes, Todah will be killed as it is written (Psalm 50:23) "Whoever sacrifices thanksgiving [=Todah] honors me." [88]

    Scholars who promote the conclusion that Jesus is a myth sometimes use this early rabbinic literature to show that the Jesus stories of the gospels derive from a Jewish teacher in the first or second century BC

  2. #2
    this means nothing as far as if he actually existed, accounts by other people from a time when truth and facts were ignored for storytelling. There is no concrete proof that he existed for obvious reasons. I find it quite annoying when people say things that they have no proof to back it up. That black book is great book of "stories" that molded and shaped the lives of everyone today and was probably a blessing. But for me and other people there is just no truth behind it.

  3. #3
    I find it quite annoying when people ask for proof, yet when it's provided to them, immediately discount it as "stories"...a lot of times (not necessarily this time) those are the same people who blast others for being narrow-minded.

  4. #4
    I think the point of the post is the fact that Jesus of Nazareth's existence is historical fact. The issue isn't whether he lived or whether he died via crucifixion but whether you believe he is the son of God of a crazy person.

  5. #5
    Couldn't a 4th option be that he was speaking metaphorically, as in "we are all sons & daughters of god, myself included?"

    Also - can we really limit our understanding of an issue like this to 3 (or 4) options?
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  6. #6
    I don't doubt "Jesus" existed.

    However, the people who wrote accounts of this person named Jesus were not historians - they were not driven to tell the story of events for the purpose of history. They wanted to mold and foster this new system of belief. "Proof" as such is then only from a religious basis, not a stand-alone historical one.

    History, at its core, is only about what happened, not [in the abstract] why it happened (i.e. stand-alone meaning) - that is what philosophy and ideology project onto history. Thus, history does not "prove Jesus" - religion does. I'll let you figure out what that really means.

  7. #7
    I don't doubt that Jesus existed or was crucified. I do doubt that he resurrected days after dying.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Star_Cards View Post
    I don't doubt that Jesus existed or was crucified. I do doubt that he resurrected days after dying.

    yeah, then it would resemble one of George A. Romero's films

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by themanishere View Post
    I don't doubt "Jesus" existed.

    However, the people who wrote accounts of this person named Jesus were not historians - they were not driven to tell the story of events for the purpose of history. They wanted to mold and foster this new system of belief. "Proof" as such is then only from a religious basis, not a stand-alone historical one.

    History, at its core, is only about what happened, not [in the abstract] why it happened (i.e. stand-alone meaning) - that is what philosophy and ideology project onto history. Thus, history does not "prove Jesus" - religion does. I'll let you figure out what that really means.

    Actually, Jocephus was just that, a historian. He chronicled the history of the Jews. That would make him a historian.

    Also, Thallus wrote a history of the Trojan War. Doing so, one could deduct, would make him a historian. Not many people could read or write at this time in man's existence. If one were to use that gift to write on history, that person would be a historian, and probably other things as well. One can be a historian as well as other trades.

    But others were: a pagan philosopher, a provincial govenor who would have worshipped the emperor, and others.

    These people are referring to what happened, and not why it happened. The Gospel provides the why, these people are only referring to the "what" by stating there was a person named Jesus who had a following.



    --My point was that there are many people on this site who say Jesus was "made up" and that He never even existed. I listed archeological evidence that proves otherwise: that Jesus did in fact exist, and here is the proof evidenced by pagans, Jews, and others that had no motive to convert people to Christianity.

    Since it has been proven that a man named Jesus did in fact walk on this Earth, you only have 3 choices of what you believe about Him.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by matt_curren View Post
    Couldn't a 4th option be that he was speaking metaphorically, as in "we are all sons & daughters of god, myself included?"

    Also - can we really limit our understanding of an issue like this to 3 (or 4) options?
    Yes, we are all sons and daughters of God. However, Jesus was the only Son of God: the only begotten Son of God, born to a ******, and sent here for one purpose only--to live a perfect sinless life, and then to be sacrificed as the Lamb of God to pay the penalty of sin to those who believe.

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