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  1. #1

    Arrow Upper Deck: their unchecklisted cards and issues of integrity in our hobby.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/05-06-UD-CUP-LIM...lenotsupported

    http://cgi.ebay.com/05-06-UD-CUP-SCR...lenotsupported

    http://cgi.ebay.com/05-06-UD-CUP-LIM...lenotsupported


    This is utterly ridiculous in my opinion. Someone (I believe it was randfordfan30?) mentioned the other day how can collectors decide waht products to buy without seeing a checklist?

    It was in reference to the fact UD yanked Ovechkin from their two top products of the year, OPC Premier and The Cup.

    I want to know, along those same guidelines, how a player collector can ever budget or know what to chase when cards from almost THREE years ago are coming out of the woodwork?

    I know personally I have acquired at least a dozen cards over the past 2 years for my collection that were never on any checklist.

    Again, this is major issue I believe and UD needs to address it. Because if they can do stuff like who's to say they won't go back and reprint cards of guys from previous products and start "adding" them to the market later?

    Oh, Crosby was never in that Limited Logos set? He is now. Hmmm, let's just make 5 or 10 of this Trilogy card of said player and use it as redemption replacementss. Why don't just make it a Cup card for more value. Can you honestly say it isn't happening or couldn't happen? And why don't all cards pack out anyway? Whay are some people showing up no BEay with cards like this that should have packed out? Total BS.

    They'll can say these cards were made with the original batch of The Cup but no matter how many cases speculators are sitting on, I find it hard to believe some of these cards are just showing up 3 years later, especially from the most widely broken hockey product annually.

    Integrity and accountability should come into play at some point since Upper Deck is a corporation.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
    i ordered a case of the cup this year hoping that cherry, cheevers, parent, bower, tony o will be apart of it like the other years, i had to order the case now to make sure i was going to be able to get one, and i don't see any checklist yet, so i guess i am taking a chance. when the product is relesased the checklist should follow very soon and not a day or 2 before release and sometimes after release date

  3. #3
    Well Barrie, I think you should write an article about this :)

  4. #4
    card companies can't control when players return their signed cards. in cases like these do you really think UD would destroy the cards when they've paid the players to sign them and have costs already sunk into the production of the cards.

    and i seriously doubt that UD sporadically reproduces cards or makes random new ones up in older sets. if they did, they would've saved themselves from all of the redemption replacement unhappiness going on.

    and to answer your question of why some people are showing up with them now. redemption replacements.

  5. #5
    It was me who mentioned it the other day :)

    I wouldn't accuse Upper Deck of just reproducing cards, or creating new ones long after the fact. If they ever got caught doing it, it would kill their credibility. They'd have too much to lose, and not nearly enough to gain.

    But I do think it's brutal the way they do things. I get that they have spent money on jerseys or autographs, but because the cards come back to them late, they can't put them into the product. Isn't this why redemptions happen in the first place?

    What they've obviously started to do is treat these cards in two different ways. In some cases, late-returned cards are replaced with redemptions, and will be distributed that way. In other cases, they pull the cards from the checklists, and *IF* they get them back, will later use them as redemption replacements.

    It infuriates me that they'll put out redemptions for cards, but then want to give you a replacement card. I have no problem with the concept of redemption cards, sometimes it's the only way to make it work. That's fine. As people (myself included) have said over and over again in other threads though..... the lack of commitment to fulfilling the redemptions is what bothers me. But we all know that the product is already sold, so any sense of urgency in getting those cards out is long gone.

    As for this concept of using the cards they pulled from checklists as redemption replacements.... I hate the idea (in principle) but I guess they don't have much of a choice. Sending you a replacement is their way of saying "we can't honour our commitments". At the same time, I don't know what else they could do with those cards, once they get them back. Maybe an Upper Deck "Random Autograph" pack would work? hahahhahahahaha.

    It just seems all so simple to me. Use a contract. Agree to pay these players 'X' dollars, and have them sign a contract RIGHT AWAY. Then pay them RIGHT AWAY. Then you can be sure they'll return them on time. If they don't, go after them for breach of contract.

  6. #6
    I do think cards that are not returned in time, and wind up not checklisted do wind up in the market as replacements for other cards. I think the simplest thing to do in this instance is to add the card to the checklist, and announce it. Now that they have the facebook page, they could do this rather easily.

  7. #7
    I'd agree with you there. I mean, it's not like Upper Deck doesn't know which cards it ends up sending out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nashrules View Post
    I do think cards that are not returned in time, and wind up not checklisted do wind up in the market as replacements for other cards. I think the simplest thing to do in this instance is to add the card to the checklist, and announce it. Now that they have the facebook page, they could do this rather easily.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyFire47 View Post
    card companies can't control when players return their signed cards. in cases like these do you really think UD would destroy the cards when they've paid the players to sign them and have costs already sunk into the production of the cards.

    and i seriously doubt that UD sporadically reproduces cards or makes random new ones up in older sets. if they did, they would've saved themselves from all of the redemption replacement unhappiness going on.

    and to answer your question of why some people are showing up with them now. redemption replacements.

    Kevin, I already inferred that these were redemption replacements, that is fairly obvious.

    As far as the redemption unhappiness, maybe if they PAID the athletes on time, that might help alleviate some of their pain and get some more cards in house. Sometimes when you have a big company you just gotta be fiscally responsible dude.

    And honestly, UD had other hard-signed autos from Zetterberg show up from the same signing these were done. Can't say how I know I just do.

    So why did some of those make it out into products within the same time period?

    So they need to get two heads together to make one and start getting on the same page. If these cards WERE made initially on the original Cup production, then why the **** where there no redemptions out there for these cards? So now they just make cards we don't know about and HOPE they come back? And if and when they do show up, they put them on the market at their discretion?

    Hmmmm, that doesn't make sense, there should at least be redemptions and they should be on the checklist.

    How would you feel Kevin if a glut of Lundqvist cards started showing up here, there and everywhere? And you wanted them but lost out because you did not have the funds to acquire them? Yeah, I know you, you'd be ****** out of your mind dude.

    There are some things that need to be worked on here. if you're gonna have cards like this there must be accountability. Put them on the checklist. Put out a redemption. And if it falls through, deal with it later like they have been doing. Just INFORM the collectors, don't be all sneaky because it makes things worse and opens the door for the whole range of "what if's?"..........................
    Last edited by Prime B; 06-03-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nashrules View Post
    I do think cards that are not returned in time, and wind up not checklisted do wind up in the market as replacements for other cards. I think the simplest thing to do in this instance is to add the card to the checklist, and announce it. Now that they have the facebook page, they could do this rather easily.
    But why not do what I said and checklist it and have a redemption? Then at least you have a "paper trail" of sorts to prove it's existence and that it was part of the original print run, not some after thought.

    Plus it allows for a player or team collector to plan for and search for the card, add to a wantlist, etc. Saying it exists and/or adding it to a checklist 3 years after it was printed? That's ridiculous in my opinion, just state up front the card was produced and checklist it. Then there are no surpsies when it shows up. Just like they know what cards they send out they know what cards they print...........................
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by 30ranfordfan View Post
    It just seems all so simple to me. Use a contract. Agree to pay these players 'X' dollars, and have them sign a contract RIGHT AWAY. Then pay them RIGHT AWAY. Then you can be sure they'll return them on time. If they don't, go after them for breach of contract.
    That's basically what ITG does.

    Dr. Price cuts a check that he sends along WITH the cards to be signed.

    Wow, I can't imagine why he has no redemptions and gets some of the toughest signers (Sakic, Forsberg, Sundin, etc) to sign for his company.....................
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