PSA vs. BVG vs. SGC

[gfel2795]

I am looking to spend my fantasy football winnings on a graded Gretzky.

I am not a big fan of gradeds, as none of my RCs are, but after a bad experience involving an OPC Roy, I refuse to buy a Gretzky/Lemieux/Roy rookie without a grade.

I have tried to read up on it but all the available stuff is either outdated or on discussion forums that I've never heard of which may contain some bias.

I ask you experts: Which is best for graded Gretzkys? Any explanations are much appreciated.

[RGM81]

I believe that the PSA are the gold standard for Gretzky RC's.

[30ranfordfan]

On Vintage stuff, go with PSA. The reason is simple: They will not grade cards that were cut from sheets. (i.e. ONLY pack pulled). Beckett, from what I understand, will grade anything.

[reoddai]

PSA is best known for vintage, BGS for most recent stuff and SGC is more of a niche market, but tend to compete with PSA for vintage.

The question you should be asking is, if Gretzky is considered vintage of not? Most people agree that 90's to present is modern and early 70's and earlier are vintage. The 80's are a transition period there late 80's saw attempts to modernize cards while the early 80's have a more vintage feel. Even more problematic is that Gretzky played in the NHL for 20 years until 1999. Messier whose RC appears after Gretzky played until 2003. Ditto the other greats like Ray Bourque, Steve Yzerman, and similar players from that time in Edmonton (Paul Coffery, GRant Fuhr, Jarri Kurri, etc. etc.). So how can people who played a long time in the modern era have their RC's considered vintage?

With that in mind, I think that either PSA or BGS would be a good choice. If you look at recent eBay sales, both PSA and BGS command similar dollar values for similar trades. What you need to decide on is which you think looks better and how you want it graded.

There have been changes in the way that PSA and BGS have graded hockey cards in the past 10 years.

PSA has recently introduced half point grades. What this means is that if you buy a Gretzky that was graded PSA 6 a long time ago, you could re-submit it to PSA (case damage?), it could receive a grade of 5.5, 6 or 6.5. So if you're buying a PSA graded Gretzky, you may want to go for one that is a half grade since you know that it would have been recently graded and even upon re-submission won't change the grade.

Another thing to keep in mind with PSA is that they use qualifiers. You can pick up a PSA 8 (OC) for a faction of the cost of a PSA 7.5 NQ. The NQ means no qualifiers and the OC means "Off centre". These qualifiers are written right on the front of the label which is minimalist in design IMO. Alternatively, you can also try to find an "authenticated" Gretzky card which would avoid the issue of grades altogether.

Alternatively, you could go for BGS. Over the years, their label has gone from paper white to silver to gold, to using the colours as a rating system. Recently graded Gretzky of high grades will have a gold label, while medium tier may have silver. Another thing to remember is that BGS will no longer grade Gretzky cards. They are considered vintage by BGS and are all graded by the BVG service (beckett vintage grading). So the icon has changed. Further, when BGS graded the gretzky, they used the same grading formula that they use now for grading modern cards. The maximum grade a gretzky could receive was a full point higher than the lowest grade. Modern BVG grades do not include subgraes and if the card has one type of flaw, this does not impact the final grade as much. BGS also offers "authenticated" card without a grade if you want to avoid the grade issue. Here are some examples to showcase what I mean about label choices listed in order of age (to the best of my knowledge):

BGS graded with sub grades on back
Front:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-OPC-W...8dQ~~60_12.JPG
Back:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-OPC-W...W8Q~~60_12.JPG

BVG Gold label with sub grades
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-Topps...2sg~~60_12.JPG

BVG silver label with sub grades, note how the surface sub grade brings down the total grade of the card. I'm not sure, butif this were re-submitted it should grade higher according to BVG grading guidelines:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...retzky_EDM.jpg
I own this card and this is my preferred style of presentation of all the choices available

BVG old white label:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-Topps...G1Q~~60_12.JPG

BVG silver lagel without subgrades, I believe this is what you get if you were to submit a card for grading now
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-OPC-Hock...Msbw~~60_3.JPG

Before you jump on one grading company or another, be sure that you read about "beckett-gate" though.
http://www.cardcollectordigest.com/2...-beckett-gate/
http://www.cardcollectordigest.com/2...ate-behind-us/

In a nut shell, someone brought in about 270 Gretzky RC to be graded. All of them turned out to be authentic, so Beckett inspected, catalogued, and graded all of them and just before they were placed in a slab, Beckett decided to do this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/P1010378.jpg
The furor was that if the card was graded, why was it then allowed to rub against other cards, potentially ruining the surface? Why were these cards allowed to be handled at all? Beckett said that once the grade was established, it didn't matter what they did with it because the card would be slabbed afterwards and the grade the mattered was the one on the top of the slab.

Most people were none too happy about what. I'm sure this opinion is prevalent within the grading industry. Worth knowing before you decide how to go.

Cheers,
reoddai

[howethegreat]

On Vintage stuff, go with PSA. The reason is simple: They will not grade cards that were cut from sheets. (i.e. ONLY pack pulled). Beckett, from what I understand, will grade anything.

not entirely true, theyll grade sheet cards but will put hand cut on the label

[MattDMC]

Vintage I use SGC modern I use BGS but like someone said above Gretzkys rc is in the middle of it. Personally for a Gretzky I would go with BGS.

[gfel2795]

PSA is best known for vintage, BGS for most recent stuff and SGC is more of a niche market, but tend to compete with PSA for vintage.

The question you should be asking is, if Gretzky is considered vintage of not? Most people agree that 90's to present is modern and early 70's and earlier are vintage. The 80's are a transition period there late 80's saw attempts to modernize cards while the early 80's have a more vintage feel. Even more problematic is that Gretzky played in the NHL for 20 years until 1999. Messier whose RC appears after Gretzky played until 2003. Ditto the other greats like Ray Bourque, Steve Yzerman, and similar players from that time in Edmonton (Paul Coffery, GRant Fuhr, Jarri Kurri, etc. etc.). So how can people who played a long time in the modern era have their RC's considered vintage?

With that in mind, I think that either PSA or BGS would be a good choice. If you look at recent eBay sales, both PSA and BGS command similar dollar values for similar trades. What you need to decide on is which you think looks better and how you want it graded.

There have been changes in the way that PSA and BGS have graded hockey cards in the past 10 years.

PSA has recently introduced half point grades. What this means is that if you buy a Gretzky that was graded PSA 6 a long time ago, you could re-submit it to PSA (case damage?), it could receive a grade of 5.5, 6 or 6.5. So if you're buying a PSA graded Gretzky, you may want to go for one that is a half grade since you know that it would have been recently graded and even upon re-submission won't change the grade.

Another thing to keep in mind with PSA is that they use qualifiers. You can pick up a PSA 8 (OC) for a faction of the cost of a PSA 7.5 NQ. The NQ means no qualifiers and the OC means "Off centre". These qualifiers are written right on the front of the label which is minimalist in design IMO. Alternatively, you can also try to find an "authenticated" Gretzky card which would avoid the issue of grades altogether.

Alternatively, you could go for BGS. Over the years, their label has gone from paper white to silver to gold, to using the colours as a rating system. Recently graded Gretzky of high grades will have a gold label, while medium tier may have silver. Another thing to remember is that BGS will no longer grade Gretzky cards. They are considered vintage by BGS and are all graded by the BVG service (beckett vintage grading). So the icon has changed. Further, when BGS graded the gretzky, they used the same grading formula that they use now for grading modern cards. The maximum grade a gretzky could receive was a full point higher than the lowest grade. Modern BVG grades do not include subgraes and if the card has one type of flaw, this does not impact the final grade as much. BGS also offers "authenticated" card without a grade if you want to avoid the grade issue. Here are some examples to showcase what I mean about label choices listed in order of age (to the best of my knowledge):

BGS graded with sub grades on back
Front:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-OPC-W...8dQ~~60_12.JPG
Back:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-OPC-W...W8Q~~60_12.JPG

BVG Gold label with sub grades
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-Topps...2sg~~60_12.JPG

BVG silver label with sub grades, note how the surface sub grade brings down the total grade of the card. I'm not sure, butif this were re-submitted it should grade higher according to BVG grading guidelines:
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/f...retzky_EDM.jpg
I own this card and this is my preferred style of presentation of all the choices available

BVG old white label:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-Topps...G1Q~~60_12.JPG

BVG silver lagel without subgrades, I believe this is what you get if you were to submit a card for grading now
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-OPC-Hock...Msbw~~60_3.JPG

Before you jump on one grading company or another, be sure that you read about "beckett-gate" though.
http://www.cardcollectordigest.com/2...-beckett-gate/
http://www.cardcollectordigest.com/2...ate-behind-us/

In a nut shell, someone brought in about 270 Gretzky RC to be graded. All of them turned out to be authentic, so Beckett inspected, catalogued, and graded all of them and just before they were placed in a slab, Beckett decided to do this:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...7/P1010378.jpg
The furor was that if the card was graded, why was it then allowed to rub against other cards, potentially ruining the surface? Why were these cards allowed to be handled at all? Beckett said that once the grade was established, it didn't matter what they did with it because the card would be slabbed afterwards and the grade the mattered was the one on the top of the slab.

Most people were none too happy about what. I'm sure this opinion is prevalent within the grading industry. Worth knowing before you decide how to go.

Cheers,
reoddai

Excellent post...I appreciate your time posting it.

This one would have been perfect!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220918226482...9#ht_818wt_936

$265 seems like an awesome deal...what's with the "Authentic" tag? Is this cut from a sheet or something? Is there a catch? Card looks great, would grade at a 6-8 IMO.

[reoddai]

Excellent post...I appreciate your time posting it.

This one would have been perfect!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220918226482...9#ht_818wt_936

$265 seems like an awesome deal...what's with the "Authentic" tag? Is this cut from a sheet or something? Is there a catch? Card looks great, would grade at a 6-8 IMO.

Authentic just means that the card has not been altered (i.e. trimmed) and is an authentic Gretzky RC. This is different than an authentic /Altered card, like this one. This means that the card is real, but someone did something to it to improve its look.

If you think the card looks good, go for it. However, your 6-8 may be optimistic. The card in the link you posted does have rough edges on both the left and right hand side with some chipping. The card is also off centre, front and back. The top left corner of the card has notching and all the corners are rounded. I know that the scan of mine is a little poor, but its centred better (7.5) and has cleaner corners and edges than the one you posted and it only got a 5 & 5.5. One good thing about the card is that it has the double blue 'skate' lines on the back of the card. This usually indicates that its a first print run OPC card.

I think it would more likely grade between 3-5
Here's a 6, much sharper than the authentic you posted:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-O-Pee...98!~~60_12.JPG

Here's a 4, very close to the authentic you posted I think
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/WAYNE-GRETZKY...6iJ!~~60_3.JPG

Still, Beckett is the one that assigns the grade, not me, so, GL with whatever you decide to get.


Cheers,
reoddai

[gfel2795]

Authentic just means that the card has not been altered (i.e. trimmed) and is an authentic Gretzky RC. This is different than an authentic /Altered card, like this one. This means that the card is real, but someone did something to it to improve its look.

If you think the card looks good, go for it. However, your 6-8 may be optimistic. The card in the link you posted does have rough edges on both the left and right hand side with some chipping. The card is also off centre, front and back. The top left corner of the card has notching and all the corners are rounded. I know that the scan of mine is a little poor, but its centred better (7.5) and has cleaner corners and edges than the one you posted and it only got a 5 & 5.5. One good thing about the card is that it has the double blue 'skate' lines on the back of the card. This usually indicates that its a first print run OPC card.

I think it would more likely grade between 3-5
Here's a 6, much sharper than the authentic you posted:
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1979-80-O-Pee...98!~~60_12.JPG

Here's a 4, very close to the authentic you posted I think
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/WAYNE-GRETZKY...6iJ!~~60_3.JPG

Still, Beckett is the one that assigns the grade, not me, so, GL with whatever you decide to get.


Cheers,
reoddai

That 3.5 looks good to me...I'll look for another "Authentic" because 'wear' that these graders are so sensitive about does not phase me at all, as long as it's the real deal. IMHO the numbered grades take away from the thrill of having the card unless it's a '10'. But I'd rather put my son through college :)