Ticked

[RT28]

I normally do just suck it up. I am just tired of it and this is the 2nd time with the same seller. All is good now though.

You can't do a damn thing. You're going way overboard, it's not your property, and it's not incumbent upon him to furnish you with a reply. Grab a Scotch and put your feet up.

[RT28]

[QUOTE=Gallinator;12030508

The ethics of this type of thing should be clear: If the auction has begun and there is even one bid on the item, it should be allowed to run its course. If there are no bids, there is not yet an expectation of a purchase (and no claim to a contract) and the item should be able to be pulled.

I take it a little further - if I see an auction for a card I like, I'll either "watch" it and send a message to the seller after it ends with no bids, or if I really want it but don't like the min bid, I'll send a note to the seller before it ends offering a price IF the auction ends with no bids.

Making an offer on a live auction item with bids on it just doesn't feel right to me and I hope I'm in the majority on that one.[/QUOTE]

Deffinantly agree.

[Gallinator]

Boycott all you like. Auction ends on something I want to bid on, or had already bid on, no big deal to me. I've been at this 50 years, they are just cards.

It says nothing about how I do my business. I am fair and honest, not agreeing with you has nothing to do with my integrity.

Raises red flags about how I do business? You need to go get a drink and not get yourself so wound up.

I have never ended an eBay auction in my life, that's not who I am. But because some sellers do, it is not an offense to eBay at this particular time.

The fact that you've assumed that I am shady because I am bringing FACT into an argument, the fact being that this is an eBay practice and not a personal choice, is something you should really think about when making accusations.

You want to attack me further, then have the fortitude to take it off a public forum like a proper business person would do. This is not Rome.

It's close enough to Rome when you choose to publicly challenge a comment I made. I answer in kind. If you had really wanted to debate me personally on whether or not this is an issue of ethics, you would have sent me a PM - not the other way around. You are apparently, to put it as politely as possible, logic-impaired. I wish to have NOTHING to do with you in any manner whatsoever, but I will respond when you post ludicrous comments. Note carefully that I do not accuse you of anything - I merely speculate how your stated opinion on this topic may indicate how you act outside these boards.

On a general note, I will reiterate that just because you CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT to do so! Stating "as long as it's not breaking eBay rules, it's not unethical" is either incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse.

On a specific note, it is indeed "breaking eBay rules" to end an auction unless you have a specified, acceptable reason to do so (from the eBay UA):

Reasons for ending a listing early

When you end a listing early or make other last-minute changes, buyers may feel disappointed. However, sometimes there's a valid reason why you need to end a listing early.

Reason	What to do
The item is lost, broken, or otherwise no longer available for sale.	As soon as you notice a problem, try to end the listing.
You made a mistake when creating the listing.	Consider revising the listing or adding a note to the item's description, rather than ending it. Learn more about the restrictions and steps for revising a listing. If this doesn't work, try to end the listing.

Those are the allowable reasons per the UA, period. As Drewk86a has pointed out, making side deals outside of eBay is also prohibited, so if that is the reason the item is "no longer available for sale" then it is not valid under the UA. Is that sufficiently factual and clear enough for you, centrehice?

I am certainly not eBay's biggest fan and have been critical of it for many things. However, eBay has taken great pains (in the early years) to establish in court that a bid is a valid expectation of entering into a binding contract and a successful bid enters both the buyer and seller into that contract (except in the Real Estate and Motors categories, where it is a non-binding contract). I couldn't find case examples through a cursory search, but I recall this issue being resolved in the late 1990s.

One can try to justify one's actions however one wants, but ending an auction with bids on it to sell outside of eBay is an ethical breach. Period.

[Estovia]

eBay, the only auction house in the world where you can pull your item from a live auction in the middle of bidding.

Unfortunately eBay actually does PERMIT this process, if you read that very snippit you used, Gallinator. "otherwise no longer for sale" is about as vague an excuse as you can get, but "I sold this card somewhere else" falls under reasons why the item is no longer for sale. Yes, it's against the rule to use eBay as a front and sell your card 'off-eBay', but it's neigh impossible to prove unless they're dumb enough to use the eBay contact system AND eBay chose to pursue it.

[Gallinator]

We must interpret the wording differently, Estovia, since it is very clear to me that eBay's UA also prohibits making side deals off-eBay (therefore making that an invalid reason for having the item "no longer for sale"). Now, I agree that the seller could always state that the item was misplaced or no longer found in inventory, etc., but that would mean that they are lying bastiches - which kind of what this thread is all about, no?

[centrehice]

It's close enough to Rome when you choose to publicly challenge a comment I made. I answer in kind. If you had really wanted to debate me personally on whether or not this is an issue of ethics, you would have sent me a PM - not the other way around. You are apparently, to put it as politely as possible, logic-impaired. I wish to have NOTHING to do with you in any manner whatsoever, but I will respond when you post ludicrous comments. Note carefully that I do not accuse you of anything - I merely speculate how your stated opinion on this topic may indicate how you act outside these boards.

On a general note, I will reiterate that just because you CAN do something doesn't make it RIGHT to do so! Stating "as long as it's not breaking eBay rules, it's not unethical" is either incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse.

On a specific note, it is indeed "breaking eBay rules" to end an auction unless you have a specified, acceptable reason to do so (from the eBay UA):

Reasons for ending a listing early

When you end a listing early or make other last-minute changes, buyers may feel disappointed. However, sometimes there's a valid reason why you need to end a listing early.

Reason	What to do
The item is lost, broken, or otherwise no longer available for sale.	As soon as you notice a problem, try to end the listing.
You made a mistake when creating the listing.	Consider revising the listing or adding a note to the item's description, rather than ending it. Learn more about the restrictions and steps for revising a listing. If this doesn't work, try to end the listing.

Those are the allowable reasons per the UA, period. As Drewk86a has pointed out, making side deals outside of eBay is also prohibited, so if that is the reason the item is "no longer available for sale" then it is not valid under the UA. Is that sufficiently factual and clear enough for you, centrehice?

I am certainly not eBay's biggest fan and have been critical of it for many things. However, eBay has taken great pains (in the early years) to establish in court that a bid is a valid expectation of entering into a binding contract and a successful bid enters both the buyer and seller into that contract (except in the Real Estate and Motors categories, where it is a non-binding contract). I couldn't find case examples through a cursory search, but I recall this issue being resolved in the late 1990s.

One can try to justify one's actions however one wants, but ending an auction with bids on it to sell outside of eBay is an ethical breach. Period.

Possession is 9/10 th's of the Law. You might want to remember this. The seller owns the card, not eBay. It's the seller's right to do with the card whichever they desire.

That's the way it is. Belly-ache all you want. It won't change a damn thing. eBay does not have time to take individuals to court on a one on one basis, they are too busy defending the personal and class action lawsuits that number in the thousands. eBay only defends in a court of law, they aren't the aggressor.

[Craig2]

We must interpret the wording differently, Estovia, since it is very clear to me that eBay's UA also prohibits making side deals off-eBay (therefore making that an invalid reason for having the item "no longer for sale"). Now, I agree that the seller could always state that the item was misplaced or no longer found in inventory, etc., but that would mean that they are lying bastiches - which kind of what this thread is all about, no?

I think the interpretation is key. I read it in the same was as did Estovia - if I have an item up for auction, then sell it to someone on SCF or wherever else, it's no longer for sale. You can argue the ethics of doing that, but I think you'd be safe under the very vague rules as established by Ebay. If they really wanted to avoid this happening, then they'd be more explicit but even then there's little they can do since they never actually have your item in-hand.

For the record, I've never ended an auction early and it's very frustrating being on the buying end when it happens. I'm now pretty aggressive in contacting Ebay members directly for items I want because of this practice, and I don't think that's really helpful for the hobby.

[centrehice]

eBay has a lot of controlling rules. For the most part, they assumed that their sellers would keep bending over, they have stood their ground, hence the reason for a new seller's policy which has already begun.

eBay is growing Worldwide, but in North America they are in the toilet in terms of losing sellers at a rapid rate. They are attempting to correct that through their ever evil feedback manipulation, and advanced contact from the buyer. It may or may not work.

Sellers have to be treated as the customer, not the end user making a purchase.

[Drewk86a]

Let's face it. As long as people keep buying eBay doesn't care. eBay is raking in the money, hand over fist. Think about it. They have very little overhead costs. The web programming is complete, so all they really need to pay is the server hosting fees. There are over 100,000 auctions ending every day. If each item sells for $1 with $1 shipping, eBay makes $20,000 per day on fees for doing nothing but providing the site.

As long as they make their $$$ they will not worry about minor infractions like this.

[centrehice]

There aren't 100,000 auctions ending daily, there are about 12 million auctions ending daily.