Question on numbered cards

[ohlund2]

Hi all,

I consider myself rather knowledgeable of the hobby having collected quite a bit back in the days and kept myself informed over the years I have not picked up much.

However, there is one thing I have not really figured out. I have read plenty of cases here on SCF where people have received numbered cards as replacements from UD and apparently, they are also available through NPN offers. Now, I thought all numbered cards were supposed to be in the final product shipped to retailers?

For instance, if you are supposed to find a Crosby card numbered to 99 in packs, is there still a possibility that not all 99 are inserted? Does UD keep some of these to use as replacements for damaged or never-made cards, NPNs or for use through other marketing channels? If this is the case, shouldn't it be considered false marketing claiming there are xx number of a certain card to be pulled out when in fact it might be less?

It puzzles me how some highend low-numbered cards show up as replacements when those very cards might be the ones some collectors are bustin packs to find. Or are those cards other redemptions that have not or will not be redeemed?

Thanks for sorting this out for me! :)

[30ranfordfan]

I think there's a couple of things at work here:

If you pull a card..... let's say a Sidney Crosby #ed 53/99 and it comes damaged, you contact Upper Deck and they agree to replace it for you.

It's very likely that Upper Deck made an extra 10 (or so) of those cards, when they receive your damaged one, they'll destroy it and stamp one of the extras 53/99, just like the one you sent back.

There have also been cases where they started to use cards as redemption replacements..... (the 07-08 Artifacts Rookies come to mind) but then were forced to make Parallel versions of the RCs to send out to ppl who actually redeemed for the Artifacts card after they'd run out of them.

Then there is another issue they've run into. Autograph sets are made, and not all the cards are returned in time for the pack-out. Upper Deck doesn't necessarily put redemptions out for all of them. So... a few months later, they've suddenly got a supply of some very nice Autos that never went into packs, and redemption cards never went out in place of them. These become redemption replacements, and find there way onto the market. It can drive set builders nuts. (There was someone on here doing a set of Sweet Shot Puck Signings last year..... he never did get a confirmed checklist, and had several cards that were not included on the checklist provided by Upper Deck).

Hope that helps.

[ohlund2]

Thanks for the input, I agree that UD quite possibly make extras for replacements. However, replacing a damaged card obviously does not affect the number of cards in circulation or originally inserted in packs.

What really boggles my mind is if someone redeem a card that turns out being never made and in replacement receives a nice high-end card numbered out of 25. (Or receive a /25 card though NPN.) Anytime this happen is the said /25 card one that originally never made in into packs or onto checklists (such as the example of late arrived autos) or could it be a card that one expect to pull from packs? If it is, that would mean there is one (and possibly more) less for the collectors of the player to find in packs which would seem unfair for all those of you who dig through high-end products.

[Inferno]

I was the guy doing the Puck Signings set, and Upper Deck leaked out six unlisted cards after the product went live (Zetterberg/Turco/Getzlaf/Bernier/Esposito). They released a whopping twelve 2007/08 Ultimate Signature cards as SPs, to my knowledge none of them appeared in packs.

[reoddai]

Now, I thought all numbered cards were supposed to be in the final product shipped to retailers?

For instance, if you are supposed to find a Crosby card numbered to 99 in packs, is there still a possibility that not all 99 are inserted? Does UD keep some of these to use as replacements for damaged or never-made cards, NPNs or for use through other marketing channels? If this is the case, shouldn't it be considered false marketing claiming there are xx number of a certain card to be pulled out when in fact it might be less?

It puzzles me how some highend low-numbered cards show up as replacements when those very cards might be the ones some collectors are bustin packs to find. Or are those cards other redemptions that have not or will not be redeemed?

If you haven't already, I suggest reading the book "Card Sharks". Should be available through your local library. It talks about the card industry as well as their supposed "numbering" and "limited copies" situations.

In answer to your questions, its not necessarily true that all copies of a numbered card are released when the product is first packaged. The common story is that some are held for replacement due to damaged cards. Other stories are that some cards simply aren't ready for production and are held back. If you read the stories about the Cup, you'll see that they even make second generation tins of the Cup with virtually no big hits in them. These second generation tins are made up of previously withheld stock and non-redeemed redemption cards. There have also been accounts where a card has been re-printed and has been hand-numbered and given as a replacement. I think that there is a famous /99 ice RC that this happened to as an example.

Also, no false marketing is technically involved since UD never states that all the cards they produce are inserted in the packs. They only guarantee odds, which is not the same thing. It might be misleading, but that's what happens.

As to your last point... that's a major issue with card companies. If card "X" isn't in the product, WTH am I busting it? I guess that's why people are still getting angry over busting wax. Every day it seems like more stories come out...

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
reoddai

[ohlund2]

Reoddai, thanks for your insight. I really do not have any personal interest in this matter since I do not open any high-end stuff and only collect one player that do not get a lot of cards printed each year. However, I enjoy this type of hobby discussion and it is one reason why i have come to enjoy SCF quite a lot since I found this place earlier this year. It is also a reason why I think the Beckett magazine has very little to offer these days. Now, it is basically a price guide only, in the past they actually had some articles on different topics and discussion matters of the hobby. I guess that died with the arrival of Internet though, all to the better.

Either way, good luck to all collectors out there, getting the cards you are after whether it may be in boxes or through redemption replacements!

[xirxious]

I've wondered that as well, It borders on bait and switch, If someone is really hyped about a card with 100 copies and they bust a couple cases and then find out they only gave them out as a replacement, gave out redemption cards that were never fulfilled or stuck the card in another product as a buyback. They sneak around the wording that the checklist can be modifed at will, but a couple times they have really walked the line on that. The Hudler Premier card was SP'ed rumored to be closer to 60 than 100 and I had to pay a higher price for it. I then hear they were sticking some into 04/05 product (lockout year) henceforth they don't have to buy as many cards autos from players. I feel there should be more requirements for disclosing how many were made and how many used in products. THe NPN cards are to get around lottery licensing requirements. If they didn't have them, they would be considered a lottery drawing.

[ono94]

The NPN cards are considered to be packed out and pulled the same as the stock shipped to customers. In theory, you send in an NPN request, if your name is chosen, UD opens a pack of cards and they will send you any hit in the pack. So if the hit is a numbered card, you get the numbered card. So, no difference between pulling the card at your LCS or at UD headquarters.

For the redemptions, yes the ones that come in after or are released after the checklist comes out, are a problem in my mind. If you produce a card, you should disclose that it is produced. If nothing else, just to prevent the speculation. But then again, if it wasn't advertised as part of the set and given out as a replacement--the collector neverly really expected to be able to pull it in the first place. For the various ones that known cards that are given as replacement--say UD has a print run of 1000 cases, they have orders for 900--which they pack out and ship. There are still 100 cases of material that never made it into the retail stream because no customer ever bought them. UD has a right to dispose of this material any way they see fit.

Also, some of the cards may be for expired redemptions that were never redeemed. Because many dealers (or individuals) purchase materials for speculation, many redemption cards are not pulled in the 2 or 3 year period the redemption is open. UD will only hold onto the cards for so long before they are eligible for use as redemptions.

Honestly, except for the mysterious appearing and disappearing cards in certain sets--I don't think the replacement process is the most screwed up thing UD does. Or any card company for that matter. Even ITG has issues with what they do with cards that were redeemed.