Gay Marriage - A minority view?

[ensbergcollector]

1. So what should gay people do to avoid being sinners?
2. Never be in love?
3. Deny any and all love in their lives?
4. Is being gay a choice they made?
5. Are you straight?
6. Did you choose to be straight?
7. How old were you when you decided to be straight?
8. Was it a tough decision?
9. Did you try being gay for a time and decide "hmm that's not for me"?
10. Or were you (as I assume) born straight?

(remember - you don't skirt issues)

i will answer these as though you actually want to know and not as though you are trying to attack me. as I have repeatedly said, I don't expect someone who doesn't follow christian morals to agree with me. I am only answering for myself.

1. do not act on the temptation
2. they can be in love. a married man can also be in love with someone who isn't his wife. to act on it however would be a sin
3. no
4. for some it is (i know way too many homosexuals, don't try and tell me none of them make the choice)
5. yes
6. sure
7. not a clue
8. nope
9. nope
10. yes


a few things for clarification. The design of the human body (and all animals for the sake) is for male and female to be together. it is necessary for reproduction as well as the symmetry which our bodies go together.

I do not have the statistics on me (so I am fully prepared for you to not believe this) but it has been shown numerous times that a large percentage of females who are homosexual have either been abused physically, sexually, or emotionally by a male in their life. Thus, psychologically they can not allow themselves to be intimate with a man. Females are safer for them. Now, i am not claiming that is the case for all females, but regardless of the percentage, the idea that homosexuality is only a birth thing and not a caused thing is not true.

[34RickyWilliams34]

a few things.

we are not dealing with the "american" translation. we are dealing with the original jewish translation from the hebrew, the first century church who translated the hebrew into aramaic and greek, the roman translation into latin, etc. The traditional interpretation is far from the "american" translation. The hebrew lexicon doesn't even give you the translation that you guys have chosen to use.

you are right that Jesus teaches forgiveness. however, he also teaches repentance of sins or, the turning away from sins. It is not my place to forgive someone in a homosexual relationship because they have done nothing to me. i am not a priest claiming to offer forgiveness on behalf of God. Therefore my forgiveness of them is not at issue here. it is how we respond.

I was born with the desire to have sex with any attractive woman who would let me. that doesn't make it moral to act on those feelings. Therefore the "they are born that way" argument doesn't hold water to a christian. Now, to someone who has no moral issue with it, of course your opinion is going to be different. But people are born with numerous desires, that will never make acting on them acceptable.

I agree that we will never come to an agreement and I hold no ill will toward you for that. i appreciate being able to have a rational conversation even though we disagree. i look forward to more conversations if you are willing. Thanks for the back and forth.

Yes, the "American translation" is probably not the most appropriate phraseology. I've had conversations with my orthodox Rabbi friend who says that the scripture relates to adultery in his best translation. It just seems to me that for the most part (a nice generalization) that the American religions have chosen to translate this to homosexuality.

I was born with the desire to have sex with any attractive woman who would let me.
Now I was actually LOL at that one!! Have only met a few men that wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with that statement. :) However, your "not choosing to act on it" statement doesn't hold water with gay men and lesbians. Please put yourself in their position, it is difficult to do when you yourself are not gay. But to stand on the opposite side of that statement seems ridiculous. This is what I hear when you say that: "I like you as a person, maybe even a friend. I respect you and your desires. However, should you choose to act upon them in a sexual manner, you are a sinner and I will have to cease my friendship with you and you are condemned in my eyes." Seriously?? But if I choose to engage in a relationship with the opposite sex and live my life as a lie, then I am accepted. Hmmm.... I would like to think that if I'm living my truth, then I am in accordance with Jesus and what he wanted for me.

But people are born with numerous desires, that will never make acting on them acceptable.
My immediate response is that you, too, are choosing to act upon your desire to hold your moral values above mine, and I can not find any acceptance in that.

My wish is that we could treat sex like people in the East (and I'm not talking about the east coast!). It's a matter-of-fact part of life, not something to be hidden away, treated as dirty, or worse yet, ignored altogether. But that's another topic for another time.

Of course I hold no ill will toward you either and am thankful to have an adult conversation that doesn't degrade to name calling and direct insults. Thankfully we're all allowed to have opinions. I just don't have to like yours. LOL :) Would be happy to talk with you again and hope we have the chance.

[34RickyWilliams34]

a few things for clarification. The design of the human body (and all animals for the sake) is for male and female to be together. it is necessary for reproduction as well as the symmetry which our bodies go together.

I do not have the statistics on me (so I am fully prepared for you to not believe this) but it has been shown numerous times that a large percentage of females who are homosexual have either been abused physically, sexually, or emotionally by a male in their life. Thus, psychologically they can not allow themselves to be intimate with a man. Females are safer for them. Now, i am not claiming that is the case for all females, but regardless of the percentage, the idea that homosexuality is only a birth thing and not a caused thing is not true.

Careful on the animal thing...there are several species that don't require male/female relations to breed. There are even same-sex relationships in animal pairs that are scientifically documented. I'm not just saying that because I see male dogs humping other male dogs at the local dog park. Although, with that said...

Also not sure I'd go with a large percentage, but sure there are many women who have been abused and end up in lesbian relationships. (btw, sure hope you're considering abuse a moral sin.) However, that's more of a psychological response to abuse. I'm not certain many of those women would actually call themselves "lesbians," and quite frankly they are likely in non-sexual lesbian relationships.

[maccards44]

I appreciate the honesty in your answers and they are revealing... I wasn't attacking you.
But there are some serious contradictions in your answers. No offense, but most of your answers on this topic appear to have a great deal of contradictions. You said that you were both "born straight" and that you "chose to be straight," it can't be both - it's one or the other.

You also say that being gay isn't a sin but being a homosexual is. Being a homosexual is: "A person who prefers emotional and sexual relations with the member of the same gender." The definition IS the action. Seperating the two is a usless exercise.

You say you know gay people who choose to be gay. Really? How many?
Why on gods green earth would they CHOOSE something that limits their rights, marginalizes them and frankly could put them in serious physical peril?

I know a lot of gay people too and the story almost always goes like this:
1) felt different at puberty
2) tried to be hetero as a teen, it didn't feel right
3) eventually realized what was different about them
4) gradually tried to accept it
5) accepted it and lived a normal live with a partner (usually for a long time)

"Choice" never entered into the equation for any of them.

Your last point about sexual abuse and lesbians is a good one and yes believe you and I already know about that happening to people.
I think homosexuality comes from genes and/or a brain chemistry issue.
For most gays they are born the way they are, when they hit puberty the brain fires it's synapse a certain way and they realize how they feel.
In the case of some sexually abused girls I think those synapse get "scrambled" (for lack of a better word) and the brain reacts by being confused & finding all men repulsive.
It's also why sexually abused girls also often times have "little girl" voices well into adulthood. Their brains are "stuck" (again - for lack of better word.)

HOWEVER - sexually abused girls notwithstanding.... there are a lot of gay people out there. Gay people who -whether you think so or not- were born with the brain chemistry to be gay. No matter what they do or what they try to change about themselves they will be gay. God made them that way and who are we to say what HE makes is wrong.

PS - I'd also watch how you swing around lingo like "christian morals" - there are PLENTY of christians who read the same bible you do, never miss a sunday service and have zero problem with gay marriage.

[theonedru]

Its just disgusting how people treat this issue, there is so much prejudice it ill's me, the fact people try and justify their bigotry towards gays is well... incomprehensible. Say what you all want to to justify it in your own minds but it is what it is.... And this message is for no one person but for everyone who believes in this antiquated idea. To be gay today is to know what it was like for the Japanese during the war, The chinese in the early part of the century, Blacks for the past few hundred years..... Bigotry is Bigotry Discrimination is Discrimination.... and there is no arguing that

[dfr52]

I appreciate the honesty in your answers and they are revealing... I wasn't attacking you.
But there are some serious contradictions in your answers. No offense, but most of your answers on this topic appear to have a great deal of contradictions. You said that you were both "born straight" and that you "chose to be straight," it can't be both - it's one or the other.

You also say that being gay isn't a sin but being a homosexual is. Being a homosexual is: "A person who prefers emotional and sexual relations with the member of the same gender." The definition IS the action. Seperating the two is a usless exercise.

You say you know gay people who choose to be gay. Really? How many?
Why on gods green earth would they CHOOSE something that limits their rights, marginalizes them and frankly could put them in serious physical peril?

I know a lot of gay people too and the story almost always goes like this:
1) felt different at puberty
2) tried to be hetero as a teen, it didn't feel right
3) eventually realized what was different about them
4) gradually tried to accept it
5) accepted it and lived a normal live with a partner (usually for a long time)

"Choice" never entered into the equation for any of them.

Your last point about sexual abuse and lesbians is a good one and yes believe you and I already know about that happening to people.
I think homosexuality comes from genes and/or a brain chemistry issue.
For most gays they are born the way they are, when they hit puberty the brain fires it's synapse a certain way and they realize how they feel.
In the case of some sexually abused girls I think those synapse get "scrambled" (for lack of a better word) and the brain reacts by being confused & finding all men repulsive.
It's also why sexually abused girls also often times have "little girl" voices well into adulthood. Their brains are "stuck" (again - for lack of better word.)

HOWEVER - sexually abused girls notwithstanding.... there are a lot of gay people out there. Gay people who -whether you think so or not- were born with the brain chemistry to be gay. No matter what they do or what they try to change about themselves they will be gay. God made them that way and who are we to say what HE makes is wrong.

PS - I'd also watch how you swing around lingo like "christian morals" - there are PLENTY of christians who read the same bible you do, never miss a sunday service and have zero problem with gay marriage.

I agree, its not so much choice as it is genetics. There are tramas that can impact sexuality but I would not describe this as the main reason individuals pursue same sex relationships. If homosexuality is a sin then why are people born w/ this attraction? It would be similar to people being born w/ the need to kill, steal, or worship false idols. Those are learned behaviors while sexuality is a biological occurence.

[OnePimpTiger]

Its just disgusting how people treat this issue, there is so much prejudice it ill's me, the fact people try and justify their bigotry towards gays is well... incomprehensible. Say what you all want to to justify it in your own minds but it is what it is.... And this message is for no one person but for everyone who believes in this antiquated idea. To be gay today is to know what it was like for the Japanese during the war, The chinese in the early part of the century, Blacks for the past few hundred years..... Bigotry is Bigotry Discrimination is Discrimination.... and there is no arguing that

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see any gay people rounded up into camps, kept in chains and shackles, being property of a straight person, being forced to work jobs against their will for little or no pay, etc, etc, etc. Not being able to be married, not being able to openly serve in the military as a gay person, and having people look at you funny from time to time is hardly on the same level and it's insulting to Chinese, Japanese, and blacks for you to say it is. Yes, discrimination is discrimination...but getting a dirty look isn't being someone else's property. Being turned down for a job isn't being forced to work extreme manual labor against your will. Not being able to serve openly in the military isn't being grouped together with other blacks and sent to the front line as a human shield. Not being able to get married isn't being rounded up and put into camps.

I get it, it's hard to be a gay person in America and they are often discriminated against...but they can live their own life, own their own house, choose their own job, they aren't anyone else's property, etc, etc, etc. Belittling what the Chinese, Japanese, and blacks went through by comparing it to that is disgusting and disgraceful.

[theonedru]

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see any gay people rounded up into camps, kept in chains and shackles, being property of a straight person, being forced to work jobs against their will for little or no pay, etc, etc, etc. Not being able to be married, not being able to openly serve in the military as a gay person, and having people look at you funny from time to time is hardly on the same level and it's insulting to Chinese, Japanese, and blacks for you to say it is. Yes, discrimination is discrimination...but getting a dirty look isn't being someone else's property. Being turned down for a job isn't being forced to work extreme manual labor against your will. Not being able to serve openly in the military isn't being grouped together with other blacks and sent to the front line as a human shield. Not being able to get married isn't being rounded up and put into camps.

I get it, it's hard to be a gay person in America and they are often discriminated against...but they can live their own life, own their own house, choose their own job, they aren't anyone else's property, etc, etc, etc. Belittling what the Chinese, Japanese, and blacks went through by comparing it to that is disgusting and disgraceful.

Can they be legally married? NO are they beaten and prosecuted for their lifestyle in America? YES Do people openly allow this to happen? YES.... Is this disgraceful and shameful? YES there is no difference between doing this to a gay person today and a black or chinese or japanese person in the past as they were all focused hated by the mass population. People can try and downplay it all they want to justify their own means to do so but it still doesnt make it right!

[OnePimpTiger]

Can they be legally married? NO are they beaten and prosecuted for their lifestyle in America? YES Do people openly allow this to happen? YES.... Is this disgraceful and shameful? YES there is no difference between doing this to a gay person today and a black or chinese or japanese person in the past as they were all focused hated by the mass population. People can try and downplay it all they want to justify their own means to do so but it still doesnt make it right!

Are they beaten and prosecuted for their lifestyle in America? Rarely...and there are hate crime laws against it. Do people openly allow it to happen? NO...if you disagree, please point out where people openly allow gays to be beaten. Were blacks beaten? Regularly and there were no laws against it, let alone hate crime laws. Are gays today property of straight people? NO. Are gays today rounded up and put into camps? NO. Are gays today forced to work in extreme manual labor for little to no pay? NO. The worst most gay people today experience is dirty looks, not being able to marry their partner, and maybe being denied a job. They aren't considered property, they aren't bought and sold, they go home to their own homes and are free to live how they want. People can try to compare it to slavery all they want to justify their own agendas, but it still doesn't make it true. If you asked 100 gay people if their life experience is similar to that of a slave, 99 of them would tell you obviously not.

[theonedru]

Are they beaten and prosecuted for their lifestyle in America? Rarely...and there are hate crime laws against it. Do people openly allow it to happen? NO...if you disagree, please point out where people openly allow gays to be beaten. Were blacks beaten? Regularly and there were no laws against it, let alone hate crime laws. Are gays today property of straight people? NO. Are gays today rounded up and put into camps? NO. Are gays today forced to work in extreme manual labor for little to no pay? NO. The worst most gay people today experience is dirty looks, not being able to marry their partner, and maybe being denied a job. They aren't considered property, they aren't bought and sold, they go home to their own homes and are free to live how they want. People can try to compare it to slavery all they want to justify their own agendas, but it still doesn't make it true. If you asked 100 gay people if their life experience is similar to that of a slave, 99 of them would tell you obviously not.

Actually there have been laws enactd since this country began to exist that was suposed to protect all people from these things....... you my have heard of them as they are quite famous and if people do not openly allow gays to be discriminated against then why are they constantly not allowed to be equal to everyone else? Why do they constantly going to court and beening allowed something one minute then having that thing voted away by bigots who see themselves superior to homosexuals?