Conversation with a co-worker of my wife. Long.

[jlzinck]

My wife works for an Animal Rights non-profit. Most of the employees are politically and socially far left liberal.
There are also quite a few Vegetarians and some total vegans.

For the record this is not a PETA group but a group that helps after natural disasters, like Katrina, and cares for the animals that were left behind. The recently helped out in the Phillippines after the huge flodding there. They also try to get seal hunting and whaling stopped.

So I am talking to this woman at a social event this past weekend. The conversation is light and it turns to the Patriots and football in general.

It turns out she went to the Super Bowl last year and I tell her how I love the Kurt Warner story and his rags to riches tale.

She responds by saying how she dislikes the "Jesus Freaks."

OK I don't know why that has anything to do what the conversation we were having but that's OK. She then goes into how Pat Tillman died for Bush's oil barron friends blah, blah, blah.

So I decide to walk around and talk to other people and I come back to my wife who is talking to this same woman. My wife is telling her about a TV show she saw and how a teenage couple having a baby gave the child up for adoption. My wife goes on to say how hard it must have been for them to give the baby a better life. She then tells her how the woman who gave birth, drew from the strength from her parents (Father is a minister) and from her god.

The co-worker starts blurting out about how the "Jesus Freaks" are ruining this country and want us to go back to the stone age.

My wife turns purple with embarassment as she is the least political person you will ever meet. She was just telling a story of something that made an impact on her.

I ask my wife to go get us a couple of drinks and take a few breaths.

I told the woman she had no right blowing up at my wife like that and she should apologize. She said she did nothing wrong.

So I just asked her a question about being a vegan. (Something I already knew but needed a preface.)

I asked why vegans don't eat pasta. (She didn't have any at the event)
She replied that pasta is made with eggs and she doesn't believe in using any part of animals at all.

I told her it wasn't an animal yet it was only an egg and that eggs taste really good.

I then ended with "It's OK to end a human pregnancy but not eat an egg?"

She turned more purple than my wife did and stormed away.

End of rant.

[OnePimpTiger]

It seems like she enjoys forcing her beliefs on others in the same way perceives the "Jesus freaks" she hates to do. The folks who advocate a "live and let live" view often have a hard time doing it themselves.

There are also quite a few Vegetarians and some total vegans.

That was my favorite part of your story...spoken like a dirty word, just as it should.

[shortking98]

It is amazing to me how some people can live their entire lives without figuring out how to speak to other people in a social setting

[Yanksfan396]

Forward my gratitude to your wife for her contributions to animals!

[ensbergcollector]

amazing point made to someone who obviously cannot understand the lack of sense in her own stand.

[gatorboymike]

For the record this is not a PETA group but a group that helps after natural disasters, like Katrina, and cares for the animals that were left behind. The recently helped out in the Phillippines after the huge flodding there. They also try to get seal hunting and whaling stopped.

Win.

OK I don't know why that has anything to do what the conversation we were having but that's OK. She then goes into how Pat Tillman died for Bush's oil barron friends blah, blah, blah.

Fail.

The co-worker starts blurting out about how the "Jesus Freaks" are ruining this country and want us to go back to the stone age.

They are, but that was irrelevant and uncalled for.

I then ended with "It's OK to end a human pregnancy but not eat an egg?"

Vegans, like fundamentalist Muslims, don't value human life. The only reason they were sad the World Trade Center was destroyed was because somebody probably had their service dog with them in the building.

I had a conversation with one of them along those lines once, and went a little something like this:

Me: So do you think animal life is more valuable than human life?
Vegan: Animals aren't the ones who build guns and nuclear weapons and kill each other!
Me: Animals don't kill each other? Are you out of your [EXPLETIVE DELETED] mind?
Vegan: Well, yes, animals do kill each other, but only for food! Animals don't kill each other for fun like people do!
Me: Animals kill each other for all kinds of reasons. A whole bunch of animal species are extremely territorial and will kill members of their own species, but from different tribes, on sight. A biologist [Bert Holldobler and Edward O. Wilson, Journey to the Ants] once said that if ants had nuclear weapons, they would end the world in a week.
Vegan: But ants DON'T have nuclear weapons!
Me: The point is that if they did have them, they would use them. The impulse to kill strangers IS there in ants just like it is in humans.
Vegan: Whatever, I still think animals are better.

It's the same kind of insipid exceptionalism exhibited by creationist Christians, only in reverse. Both creationists and vegans make an incorrect bedrock assumption that humans and animals are wholly separate, wholly different kinds of life form. That is wrong. Humans are animals too, and anybody who knows anything about biology (as these celery-stuffers claim to) understands that.

[tutall]

Win.



Fail.



They are, but that was irrelevant and uncalled for.



Vegans, like fundamentalist Muslims, don't value human life. The only reason they were sad the World Trade Center was destroyed was because somebody probably had their service dog with them in the building.

I had a conversation with one of them along those lines once, and went a little something like this:

Me: So do you think animal life is more valuable than human life?
Vegan: Animals aren't the ones who build guns and nuclear weapons and kill each other!
Me: Animals don't kill each other? Are you out of your [EXPLETIVE DELETED] mind?
Vegan: Well, yes, animals do kill each other, but only for food! Animals don't kill each other for fun like people do!
Me: Animals kill each other for all kinds of reasons. A whole bunch of animal species are extremely territorial and will kill members of their own species, but from different tribes, on sight. A biologist [Bert Holldobler and Edward O. Wilson, Journey to the Ants] once said that if ants had nuclear weapons, they would end the world in a week.
Vegan: But ants DON'T have nuclear weapons!
Me: The point is that if they did have them, they would use them. The impulse to kill strangers IS there in ants just like it is in humans.
Vegan: Whatever, I still think animals are better.

It's the same kind of insipid exceptionalism exhibited by creationist Christians, only in reverse. Both creationists and vegans make an incorrect bedrock assumption that humans and animals are wholly separate, wholly different kinds of life form. That is wrong. Humans are animals too, and anybody who knows anything about biology (as these celery-stuffers claim to) understands that.

Once again you are wrong and let me take this opportunity to turn this once again away from the topic at hand...

I do believe in creationism however i also believe in evolution. I know i have covered this before and i know you have read it before but once again choose to believe in the three people who have wronged you in the past over the millions and millions of people who have done nothing to you...

I believe we are shaped by a makers hand. I believe the heavens and earth was seperated by a higher being and believe animals were put on the earth seperate from the animals. I also believe over the course of time survival of the fittest has occured and caused evolution.

I believe the main difference between humans and animals is communication. I believe God did this on purpose to seperate the animals from the humans and put animals on this earth to provide for us. Im not asking you to believe this, I dont care if i sound like someone out in left field. This is what i believe.... PERIOD.

Just as christians cannot prove this happened science has yet to prove it didnt happen. if you can show me PROOF of where the earth came from, not a scientific study that shows the creation of the earth within a 60 billion year range (that doesnt solve anything) show me. I would love to see actual hard proof of any of the theories the prove creationism didnt happen.



Now back to the topic, Im glad your wife stood up for them. While I am an avid hunter and fisherman i hold animals rights in the highest regard. I also happen to actually believe what i wrote earlier and think animals were put here for a purpose and believe hunting is more of a moment of hunter and animal than rambo playing out in the woods. I also really like your example of the egg and the human and will probably use that in the future. Ill give you credit once then it becomes my story

[gatorboymike]

I believe the main difference between humans and animals is communication. I believe God did this on purpose to seperate the animals from the humans and put animals on this earth to provide for us. Im not asking you to believe this, I dont care if i sound like someone out in left field. This is what i believe.... PERIOD.

If that's what you believe, how do you explain the fact that the vast, vast majority of animals on earth cannot be eaten, utilized or used by humans in any way at all? You can't believe in evolution and creationism at the same time because the two are mutually exclusive. Creationism says that humans were magicked into existence by God, all of a sudden, all at once, fully formed and in their present state, 6000 years ago. Evolution says we arose from simpler forms of life via descent with modification over the course of about 2.2 billion years. You can believe that the original life form(s) on earth were created by God and that biological evolution via natural processes took over from there, but you can't believe in a literal creation story such as the Biblical one and evolution simultaneously.

Just as christians cannot prove this happened science has yet to prove it didnt happen. if you can show me PROOF of where the earth came from, not a scientific study that shows the creation of the earth within a 60 billion year range (that doesnt solve anything) show me. I would love to see actual hard proof of any of the theories the prove creationism didnt happen.

Just so you know, the "prove X doesn't exist" type of arguments are invalid. I mean, what kind of PROOF are you looking for? A rock buried 100 meters underground in eastern Mongolia with a message engraved in it that says, "Hey guys, the earth is 4.5 billion years old"? Or video footage taken by a guy with a time machine? That's never going to happen. The best we can do is to use dating methods, and propose models/simulations that conform to well-understood laws of physics, agree with the dates we get, and yield the world we see today. If you just want to sit back, cross your arms and say "That's not good enough and I don't believe you!" because of some religious preconceptions or because that's not what you want to be true, then fine. But don't go presenting yourself as a truth-seeker because you're not actually looking for proof of anything. You're looking to fend off threats to your fragile worldview. And don't be surprised when people like me, or heaven forbid, any actual experts in the relevant fields you might pester, don't seem impressed by your stoicism or in any hurry to convince you. You're probably trying as hard as you can to not be convinced.

[tutall]

If that's what you believe, how do you explain the fact that the vast, vast majority of animals on earth cannot be eaten, utilized or used by humans in any way at all? You can't believe in evolution and creationism at the same time because the two are mutually exclusive. Creationism says that humans were magicked into existence by God, all of a sudden, all at once, fully formed and in their present state, 6000 years ago. Evolution says we arose from simpler forms of life via descent with modification over the course of about 2.2 billion years. You can believe that the original life form(s) on earth were created by God and that biological evolution via natural processes took over from there, but you can't believe in a literal creation story such as the Biblical one and evolution simultaneously.

I disagree... Do i believe we evolved from monkeys? no... do i believe earlier speicies of birds could have a tiny mutation that makes the feathers turn from a bright white to a offwhite or yellow color yes... Many people point to certain adaptations or markings or whatever comparing completely different animals to try and link them which i do not think actually happened. But as far as survival of the fittest and animals evolving over time evolving into a "hybrid" species i think can happen and does happen.

Just so you know, the "prove X doesn't exist" type of arguments are invalid. I mean, what kind of PROOF are you looking for? A rock buried 100 meters underground in eastern Mongolia with a message engraved in it that says, "Hey guys, the earth is 4.5 billion years old"? Or video footage taken by a guy with a time machine? That's never going to happen. The best we can do is to use dating methods, and propose models/simulations that conform to well-understood laws of physics, agree with the dates we get, and yield the world we see today. If you just want to sit back, cross your arms and say "That's not good enough and I don't believe you!" because of some religious preconceptions or because that's not what you want to be true, then fine. But don't go presenting yourself as a truth-seeker because you're not actually looking for proof of anything. You're looking to fend off threats to your fragile worldview. And don't be surprised when people like me, or heaven forbid, any actual experts in the relevant fields you might pester, don't seem impressed by your stoicism or in any hurry to convince you. You're probably trying as hard as you can to not be convinced.

Thats my point... Im not trying to prove anything but if your post you are stating it is a fact that creationism didnt happen. Just like i have no proof you have no proof.... It isnt about not being convinced it is trying to show you not everyone is the mold you try to point christians to be. Im not trying to convince you this is how it is simply telling you my beliefs... take it for what it is worth to you but not everyone thinks the same way you do and contrary to your belief you are not always going to be right. Some situations like this we will not know who is right possibly ever.

[gatorboymike]

I disagree... Do i believe we evolved from monkeys? no... do i believe earlier speicies of birds could have a tiny mutation that makes the feathers turn from a bright white to a offwhite or yellow color yes... Many people point to certain adaptations or markings or whatever comparing completely different animals to try and link them which i do not think actually happened. But as far as survival of the fittest and animals evolving over time evolving into a "hybrid" species i think can happen and does happen.

In the circles I've been in, that's called the micro/macro canard. Although you don't seem to follow it exactly. If you're saying that there are fixed barriers between species that limit the amount of morphological change they can undergo ("a dog doesn't become a non-dog"), biological science does not recognize any such thing.

Thats my point... Im not trying to prove anything but if your post you are stating it is a fact that creationism didnt happen. Just like i have no proof you have no proof.... It isnt about not being convinced it is trying to show you not everyone is the mold you try to point christians to be. Im not trying to convince you this is how it is simply telling you my beliefs... take it for what it is worth to you but not everyone thinks the same way you do and contrary to your belief you are not always going to be right. Some situations like this we will not know who is right possibly ever.

Believe me, I know not everyone agrees with me. That's not the point. You seem to be coming at this from the perspective of "Neither of us can prove or disprove what the other says, so we'll just never know, and therefore our points of view are equally valid." That is not the case. In situations like that, we look at evidence. Physical evidence suggests the earth is old and evolution is correct. It does not support a young earth or creationism, because we do not see what we would expect to see if those things were true. In the scientific world, support for an idea is directly proportional to how well the idea is supported. Scientists don't just say, "We can't prove it either way, so I'm just going to believe X and you can't criticize me." Know what I mean? Do away with the idea of absolute certainty, because outside of mathematics and logic, absolute certainty is unattainable.