The bible - fact or fiction???

[gatorboymike]

I wholeheartedly disagree that there was no real sacrifice. Jesus is the human form of God and he submitted himself to be like man and endure any temptation man would experience. Jesus had ample opportunities to submit to his own desires but he willing gave Himself up.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.

It's hard to explain the Trinity and really, you either believe it or you don't. But if you feel like reading about it, here are some passages:

The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

[Wudeverbro]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.



The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

I won't choose to engage in a battle of words with you on this. I don't proclaim myself as the best witness for Christ nor do I articulate it the best, but I still believe it and I do the best I can. I respect your opinion that you don't buy the Bible but to call what I believe in "tomfoolery" is a bit disrespectful on your part. I'm just trying to have a level headed conversation here and in no way did I call evolution/abiogenesis tomfoolery or fiction.

[mrveggieman]

Let me jump in with my spin on holy books as well as religion as a whole. God/Allah/Jehova or whatever you chose to call him is a all knowing perfect entity. That is what anyone with a religious backround believes. However religion including holy books are not perfect. I believe the reason why there are different religions and holy books and obvious contridictions in them is not an accident. I believe that God set it up that way not for confusion (For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33) but that is they only way we as sinful mortals can relate. If God put out one perfect religion with a perfect holy book that would be beyond the realm of our understanding and therefore be completely useless to us. Therefore he speaks to us in a manner that we can relate to and understand.

[gatorboymike]

Well, I respect your right to believe whatever you want. But I have no obligation to respect the beliefs themselves. The difference between evolution and trinitarian doctrine is that I can show you the material evidence for evolution. Trinitarian doctrine only has the greasy words of ancient propagandists and the willingness of desperate dogmatists to accept the incomprehensible to support it. Sorry if that offends you, but it's still true, and that's why I accept the former and not the latter.

[gatorboymike]

If God put out one perfect religion with a perfect holy book that would be beyond the realm of our understanding and therefore be completely useless to us. Therefore he speaks to us in a manner that we can relate to and understand.

Problem is, most believers, no matter what religion they are, assert that that's exactly what they do have, and if you can't understand it, that's because you're just too evil and stupid and imperceptive and so on. And of course, none of them agree with one another. Surely if we're dealing with an all-powerful being, it could have created us in such a manner that we would be able to understand its nature and its desires clearly and perfectly, all of us, everywhere, all the time. And surely if it loved us and would judge us by how well we followed its instructions, it would do exactly that. You must contend that the way things are set up now, most people are NOT relating to and understanding the way he supposedly speaks to us.

[mrveggieman]

Problem is, most believers, no matter what religion they are, assert that that's exactly what they do have, and if you can't understand it, that's because you're just too evil and stupid and imperceptive and so on. And of course, none of them agree with one another. Surely if we're dealing with an all-powerful being, it could have created us in such a manner that we would be able to understand its nature and its desires clearly and perfectly, all of us, everywhere, all the time. And surely if it loved us and would judge us by how well we followed its instructions, it would do exactly that. You must contend that the way things are set up now, most people are NOT relating to and understanding the way he supposedly speaks to us.

Some relate to and follow his instructions most don't. However I think that most of us weather intentional or not are following a his instructions. Most religions have basic common sense rules. Such as loving and respecting your neighboor, honoring obeying your parents, prohibitions against killing, stealing, drug use, etc. The part were we as humans get it twisted on is who exactly is god, his prophets and what there roles are. Jesus is the perfect example is he a God or God like or just a prophet? Basically God did not for whatever reason want us to know exactly who he is. That is why he allowed different and slightly conflicting holy books eg the Bible and Quron. It's like the old saying some people like lobster, some like steak (me I'm a vegetarian ) but we all like to eat.

[gatorboymike]

Thing is, there's nobody out there who wants to murder you, subvert your government, brainwash your kids and/or breed your culture out of existence because you like lobster and they like steak.

[spuds1961]

Always an interesting read when I'm bored,thanks guys.

[theonedru]

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.



The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

One of the rare deals where I agree with you. Lets hope your agreeable logic doesnt become habitual as I may have to start respecting you a little more .

[theonedru]

Thing is, there's nobody out there who wants to murder you, subvert your government, brainwash your kids and/or breed your culture out of existence because you like lobster and they like steak.

Actually if I am correct according to the bible eating shellfish will result in damnation, along with wearing a poly-cotton blended fabric so in a way there are soem out there who would like you out of existance for eating lobster.