pitch counts

[superpieman]

im watching a college baseball game and the starting pitcher is up around 140 pitches. it made me think about the pros. do major league teams even understand the way they are ruining these kids? they take college pitcher who throw 130-140 pitches some regularly. then they put them on these ridiculously low pitch counts of like 60 to start and work them up to maybe 100. all they are doing is weakening there arms. now you have taken a kid that used to be able to throw 140 pitches just fine and turned him into a pitcher in risk of serious injury if he throws 140 pitches. do teams even understand this? i mean its such a basic concept to us fans but it seems that teams dont get it.

[Stl_Cardinals_Fan]

im watching a college baseball game and the starting pitcher is up around 140 pitches. it made me think about the pros. do major league teams even understand the way they are ruining these kids? they take college pitcher who throw 130-140 pitches some regularly. then they put them on these ridiculously low pitch counts of like 60 to start and work them up to maybe 100. all they are doing is weakening there arms. now you have taken a kid that used to be able to throw 140 pitches just fine and turned him into a pitcher in risk of serious injury if he throws 140 pitches. do teams even understand this? i mean its such a basic concept to us fans but it seems that teams dont get it.

My dad is a big complainer about taking pitchers out of games. He grew up a teen in the era of guys like Bob Gibson and such would would always pitch complete games. Back then teams would only carry their starting rotation and maybe a few relievers at most. There were no "one-batter pitchers" or "one-inning relievers." The starters all worked deep into games. He's a big believer in pitchers pitching their worth rather than being taken out.

Just today, starter Adam Ottavino for the Cardinals was pulled after a single in the 6th inning, but he had only thrown 75 pitches.

I'm all for pulling a starter if he's tiring out or something...but I think what teams look at is long term when they pull guys out of high pitch counts. They reckon that if a starter regularly throws 140+ pitches, he's going to burn out his arm quicker than if we try to keep that under control.

Sorta like how Craig Biggio started his career as a catcher but then was converted to an infielder in order to take the strain of his legs so he could keep his speed and have a longer career.

[gladdyontherise]

Pitch Count happened because team began to invest millions of dollars into pitchers

[superpieman]

Pitch Count happened because team began to invest millions of dollars into pitchers

i know why pitch counts happen. my point is they take these kids and then weaken their arms by starting them out on pitch counts of like 60 and then only increase it by 5-10 picthes a game so by the time he works up to 100 pitches thats his max. it would seem to me a pitcher that could pitch 9 innings everytime would be way more valuable to a team. look at roy halladay i think at one point last year here pitched 5 straight complete games or something like that.

[Redman5006]

Great post. It is really a different era for pitchers now days. As mentioned before, pitchers used to pitch complete games, not to mention with extra innings at times on only a few days rest.

[75zito]

There is a huge difference... they guys are not making millions of dollars on a college team! Plus in the majors, most are having to learn to throw more pitches that can cause more damage to their arms... especially the breaking stuff that they may not being throwing so much in college!

[superpieman]

[QUOTE=75zito;8048236]There is a huge difference... they guys are not making millions of dollars on a college team![QUOTE]

thats my point though if it was my multi million dollar investment i want a guy that can throw more then 6 innings. for me personally if i had 10-15 million a year into a pitcher i want more then 180 innings from him.

[Velvet Hoop]

In general, I'm a proponent of allowing pitchers to go deeper in to games, pitch more regularly, and avoid inning limitations. But there is statistical evidence that the more pitches a pitcher throws in high leverage situations, the more likely he is to sustain an injury. There shouldn't be a magic number in terms of when a pitcher needs to come out. The focus should be more on how many pitches he throws in tough spots late in the game. A 130 pitch game where you have a 10 run lead the whole time runs a very low risk of future injury. A 120 pitch game where the last 30 pitches have come where the game is tied with runners on base is a bad deal.

The main problem I have with pitching philosophy today is not letting pitchers work out of their own jams. It's psychological. Some starters at the first sign of trouble after the 5th immediately start looking over their shoulder. If I was running a team, I'd want my pitchers mentally tough. I'd want them to want to finish every inning they start.

[gladdyontherise]

In general, I'm a proponent of allowing pitchers to go deeper in to games, pitch more regularly, and avoid inning limitations. But there is statistical evidence that the more pitches a pitcher throws in high leverage situations, the more likely he is to sustain an injury. There shouldn't be a magic number in terms of when a pitcher needs to come out. The focus should be more on how many pitches he throws in tough spots late in the game. A 130 pitch game where you have a 10 run lead the whole time runs a very low risk of future injury. A 120 pitch game where the last 30 pitches have come where the game is tied with runners on base is a bad deal.

The main problem I have with pitching philosophy today is not letting pitchers work out of their own jams. It's psychological. Some starters at the first sign of trouble after the 5th immediately start looking over their shoulder. If I was running a team, I'd want my pitchers mentally tough. I'd want them to want to finish every inning they start.

Same thing Nolan Ryan has said about what he wants the Rangers starters to do. Can't say i disagree..