Which act would be considered more immoral

[Rowdy Gentleman]

Well, this is very interesting.

Because I don't think my logic is incorrect.

Rules are rules....like them or not, they were made to be obeyed.

Disobeying said rules is a clear sign of insubordination to the authority which has placed these rules.


It says it right there that god is against lust of impure hearts by dishonoring their bodies among themselves.

This has been interpreted to mean that certain sex acts are implicitly not allowed by god, and when lust is in the equation they are downright sinful.

Riddle me this....

Can one have sex without carnal desire?

Can one have recreational sex including foreplay, oral sex, and various sexual positions without any lust in it?

I do not think so.

I explained vividly how your logics incorrect. As a matter of fact, I don't think I could possibly explain it any more clearly then what I did.

You're not only assuming once again but you're contradicting yourself. You went from Christians can't sex at all because it is sinful to now that Christians have sex with the intention of lust. Do you not think these things through?

Why does sex seem to be the most popular topic? I'm starting to think you might have an addiction to sex. Sex isn't the most popular topic for everyone, only you.

[JustAlex]

Well, some would say lust can be replaced with love.

Well, let's see...

Lust: intense or unbridled sexual desire

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lust

Again....is it possible to do the things I said without lust being in the equation?

I personally do not believe it is.

I explained vividly how your logics incorrect. As a matter of fact, I don't think I could possibly explain it any more clearly then what I did.

I'm sorry but you did not prove my logic incorrect.

Rules are made to be obeyed whether or not you like them, and if you don't obey you are in open rebellion against the rule maker.

This is exactly what the bible teaches.

The rule maker is god, and even if you don't like the rules you must obey them in order to be loyal to him.

You're not only assuming once again but you're contradicting yourself. You went from Christians can't sex at all because it is sinful to now that Christians have sex with the intention of lust. Do you not think these things through?

Actually I'm not contradicting myself at all.

I said christians can't have recreational sex, only procreation.

The reason why you can't have recreational sex is because inevitably this sex will include lust within it.

Lust is a sin.....It's a catch-22, but I'm not the rule maker.

Why does sex seem to be the most popular topic? I'm starting to think you might have an addiction to sex. Sex isn't the most popular topic for everyone, only you.

I already explained why.

Because sex is something we as humans greatly desire, however your religion places a great deal of rules on it.

Some of the followers of said religion like to have their cake and eat it too.....I'm calling them out on it.

My argument has been very consistent throughout all of this discussion.

Oh and I'm not "addicted to sex".....although, being a godless heathen, I love sex very much, and I'm more than comfortable indulging in lust.

[Wickabee]

Well, let's see...

Lust: intense or unbridled sexual desire

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lust

Again....is it possible to do the things I said without lust being in the equation?

I personally do not believe it is.

You don't believe sex acts can be done without lust? Do you believe hookers are lusting after their johns?
It's more than possible.
However, it's possible that you're using a definition of "lust" that was decided upon much more recently than the line you're quoting, or that you don't understand "lust" in the context, although you think you do. How about when the bible says even looking at a woman besides your wife with lust is adultery of the heart. That would suggest that looking at your wife through lu™™™™l eyes is what you're supposed to do.

The argument also could be made that you've found what is ultimately the unavoidable sin. You show me someone who's died after never having sex or masturbated and I'll show you someone who died a damn dirty liar.

[JustAlex]

You don't believe sex acts can be done without lust? Do you believe hookers are lusting after their johns?
It's more than possible.

I do believe sex acts can be done without lust, but not the ones I described and in the situation I placed them in.

Oral sex, anal sex, and certain sex acts which I don't want to explicitly describe.....these require a good amount of sexual desire to preform.

BTW, how can one know whether or not you are indulging in love or lust? Where is the line?

However, it's possible that you're using a definition of "lust" that was decided upon much more recently than the line you're quoting, or that you don't understand "lust" in the context, although you think you do. How about when the bible says even looking at a woman besides your wife with lust is adultery of the heart. That would suggest that looking at your wife through lu™™™™l eyes is what you're supposed to do.

The argument also could be made that you've found what is ultimately the unavoidable sin. You show me someone who's died after never having sex or masturbated and I'll show you someone who died a damn dirty liar.

We are in full agreement on this part.

And since I have found the ultimate unavoidable sin, what can we conclude from that?

Are some christians cherry picking?

Do they choose to obey some rules and not the others?

Do you see how easily these rules can be broken even while not intending to break them?

Is this our fault as imperfect humans or are these rules ridiculous and should be ignored....if so, what is the point of rules and a system of rules if you can pick and choose which you want?


You see Wick, I already went through this process more than 4 years ago, and this is where I concluded that the christian religion which I was part of was wrong/flawed.

It's not the god thing that bothers me....it's their rules.

[Rowdy Gentleman]

You are not allowed to have ANY sex whatsoever because it's a sin.

.
Actually I'm not contradicting myself at all.

I said christians can't have recreational sex, only procreation.

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.

.
I'm sorry but you did not prove my logic incorrect.

Rules are made to be obeyed whether or not you like them, and if you don't obey you are in open rebellion against the rule maker.

So who exactly formed the rules--actually what rules are you even referring to?

.
This is exactly what the bible teaches.

The rule maker is god, and even if you don't like the rules you must obey them in order to be loyal to him.

As I said the only rules that have been made by God are the Ten Commandments followed by the Beatitudes. In this list of 22 rules point out which one says that I can't have my own opinions? Which ones say that I must give up individuality to follow precisely the "rules" (still not sure which rules you are talking about...) of someone that's a human just like I am.

.
I already explained why.

Because sex is something we as humans greatly desire,
My argument has been very consistent throughout all of this discussion.

Sex is not something humans desire. Humans desire acceptance which inevitably leads to sex due to mass media, porn, etc. portraying sex as perfect with no strings attached relationships and/or no emotional or physical consequences.

[Wickabee]

So you're saying sexual desire and lust are the same thing?
That's kind of like saying drinking and getting drunk are the same thing.

[Rowdy Gentleman]

So you're saying sexual desire and lust are the same thing?
That's kind of like saying drinking and getting drunk are the same thing.

No. I'm saying that due to our want and need for acceptance some use sex as a way to feel accepted. This, to me, is lust. It's basically using others for your self esteem and to fulfill the need to be accepted. Not to have a healthy relationship that respects your partner.

[Wickabee]

Sorry that was directed at alex, not you. My bad.

[JustAlex]

It seems to me that you are contradicting yourself.

Um....you either misquoted me or took it out of context.

here's what I said:

This might seem strict and unfair, but that's basically what christians tell homosexuals....

You are not allowed to have ANY sex whatsoever because it's a sin.

But at the same time you guys are ignoring your own rules!.....You are NOT allowed to have ANY sex unless it's for procreation purposes.

You see....I said that you are not allowed to have sex unless it's for procreation.

But religions tell homosexuals that they shouldn't have any sex at all because homosexuality is a sin....there is a double standard here.

[Rowdy Gentleman]

Um....you either misquoted me or took it out of context.

here's what I said:


You see....I said that you are not allowed to have sex unless it's for procreation.

But religions tell homosexuals that they shouldn't have any sex at all because homosexuality is a sin....there is a double standard here.

Well if this is the case, did you stop to think that it's a sin due to the inability to pro create?