Evidence vs. Faith.

[dscards]

If I'm hellbent on anything is challenging them and getting a clear answer out of theists.

Why? What makes you hellbent on this? What will a clear answer do for your life? What will challenging them on this forum do for your life?

[JustAlex]

Would you mind explaining how the Christian God defies those letters? Is it only the Christian God or are we simply singling them out for some reason?

Law of identity.....most people can't properly define what god is.....especially Christians.

Many of them are very mixed on god, is it the "holy trinity" is it just one? What is his nature? Why does he do the things that he does?

Law of non-contradiction.....God contradicts himself so many times in the bible there are too many examples, but a few would be the argument of evil and the problem with omnipotence.

Law of excluded middle.....this is the one that god really violates..."He is everywhere and nowhere", "he is the beginning and the end", etc.

[Wickabee]

Didn't I just say that I DON'T think theists are "wrong" for believing in god? I clearly said that, right?

And if I were to say "I'm a huge fan of the Republican party" one time, would you believe me?
It's even better when you worded it in an EXHASPERATED manner, as evidenced here:

I will now have to stress that NOT ALL religious charities are like this, but here is a perfect example of what I was talking about.

You see, we're not idiots. We know that you're saying you will have to because you think you shouldn't, not because you genuinely feel compelled for purposes of tact.

Or there's this thread, comparing theists to those who genuinely believe in and chase bigfoot.
https://www.sportscardforum.com/threa...e-for-yourself

Or then there's real nuggets like this, saying that atheism, which claims God does not exist, makes no claims, and again comparing theists to people who believe in mythical creatures, this time from Ireland.

HEY EVERYONE....do you believe in leprechauns?

NO?

OH, you have just the same amount of the "Burden of proof" as does the person saying he believes in leprechauns.

Seriously, how the hell can you guys think this makes sense?

So tell me again how you aren't constantly calling theists stupid without using the word stupid. Looks pretty clear to me.

I'm not hellbent on proving them wrong at all.

Because you can't. Claiming God doesn't exist, which is atheism, is making a claim. An unprovable claim.

If I'm hellbent on anything is challenging them and getting a clear answer out of theists.

So why are you challenging a group of mostly, if not entirely, levelheaded people who do use logic and reason whether they believe or not?

Let me know when I have EVER called any theist an "evil moron".....that would be never.

As I just demonstrated, stating an idea (If you believe in God you must believe in Bigfoot and Leprechauns too) does not require one to use exact words.

Look, when you talk about politics, you often make a lot of sense and are a smart guy. When you discuss religion, you attack one group that doesn't really exist in these parts, and is more a political group than a religious one. Basically, if the discussion is politics, you discuss politics and it's great. When the discussion is religion, you discuss politics, and it's awful, because you inevitably find a way to lump all of us in with the Christian right. I'm pretty sure you know you're doing it and I'm pretty sure you see it as a success.

[Wickabee]

Law of identity.....most people can't properly define what god is.....especially Christians.

Many of them are very mixed on god, is it the "holy trinity" is it just one? What is his nature? Why does he do the things that he does?

Not individually they're not. Even as individual religions they're not.

Law of non-contradiction.....God contradicts himself so many times in the bible there are too many examples, but a few would be the argument of evil and the problem with omnipotence.

This I'm with.

Law of excluded middle.....this is the one that god really violates..."He is everywhere and nowhere", "he is the beginning and the end", etc.

This one, as much as you'll love this, falls into the realm of human non understanding. Everything we see and know has a beginning and an end. God does not. We've never seen or experienced such a thing, so we can't wrap our heads around it. In one thread you did venture to "Maybe 'God' is the Universe". If it were, then it would be the beginning, the end, and all things between.

[JustAlex]

Wick, why do you believe in god? I don't think I've ever heard you respond to that question.

If you don't mind I'd like to know.

[Wickabee]

Wick, why do you believe in god? I don't think I've ever heard you respond to that question.

If you don't mind I'd like to know.

Because as much as theoretical chaos will eventually bring about something, it really doesn't. Even if it did, life is a complete mystery to us. Couple that with years of "We're so close to a cure for MS we can taste it!" before my diagnosis and 2 1/2 years of "we don't even actually know what causes it or if it's even actually a disease or a symptom of several other things," and my faith in the scientific community is shaken, as it looks very human. I'm not saying the earth is 6000 years old, and I'm not saying we came from some dude, his chick and a snake. I'm just saying it sounds ridiculous to think everything just fell into place. I don't deny the evidence, but I fail to see where it disproves God, or proves God is unnecessary for this to work.

And at the end of the day, it's my damn business, so if I said "Because I like Root Beer" that should be good enough.

I will also add that I'm a little guilty of association choice. The Venn diagram between the all-out atheists I know and the most pretentious people I know is almost a perfect circle.

[JustAlex]

So, you're going with the argument from ignorance? I'm not insulting you, this is what it's called.

You don't know how life came about, therefore, god did it.

Your reasoning is in line with many other theists.

Unfortunately for me.....it is insufficient and not good enough.

I'm not saying you're wrong for having that reasoning, I'm saying it's simply not good enough (for me at least).

[Wickabee]

So, you're going with the argument from ignorance? I'm not insulting you, this is what it's called.

You don't know how life came about, therefore, god did it.

Not quite. I've been presented with ideas and picked the one that made most sense to me. I guess, in a way you're right. I'm saying "God did it" makes more sense to me than "Nothing did it." You think the opposite. Big deal. Why you gotta pick fights?

Your reasoning is in line with many other theists.

See, this is where one starts to feel the insult. I know exactly what your thoughts of "many atheists" is. I know I'm lumped into that group in your mind which, in your mind, is personified by the Christian right, which is the furthest thing from what I am.

Yet there I am, lumped into that group, in your little head. Real nice.

[JustAlex]

Not quite. I've been presented with ideas and picked the one that made most sense to me. I guess, in a way you're right. I'm saying "God did it" makes more sense to me than "Nothing did it." You think the opposite. Big deal. Why you gotta pick fights?

Personally, I don't believe "Nothing did it".....I believe we don't yet know what did what.

The Big bang theory (for example) is not a theory for the "creation" of the universe, it's the theory for the EXPANSION of the universe....we have no idea what started the singularity or what was before the singularity.

For all we know it MIGHT have been god, but it MIGHT have also been just about anything else.

Furthermore, the Universe itself might be god.

See, this is where one starts to feel the insult. I know exactly what your thoughts of "many atheists" is. I know I'm lumped into that group in your mind which, in your mind, is personified by the Christian right, which is the furthest thing from what I am.

Yet there I am, lumped into that group, in your little head. Real nice.

I never said anything like that...nor did I imply it either.

I said your reasoning of "God did it because we don't know what else could've done it" is very much aligned with many other theists....Unitarians are liberal christians and they have the same reasoning...."god did it".

This is actually one of the most common reasoning that theists come up with.

It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal or anything of the sort.....

[Wickabee]

I never said anything like that...nor did I imply it either.

That's a flat out lie. It's there for everyone to see. You knew what you were saying, and you said it. Own it. Don't be a coward.

I said your reasoning of "God did it because we don't know what else could've done it" is very much aligned with many other theists....Unitarians are liberal christians and they have the same reasoning...."god did it".

This is actually one of the most common reasoning that theists come up with.

It has nothing to do with conservative or liberal or anything of the sort.....

Thing is, that wasn't my reasoning. That was the reasoning YOU placed on my words through your preconceived notions of what I am, that being a theist, so right wing conservative Christian. I never, at all said, "I don't know, so God did it", that was your idea. Where did it come from? Why did you attribute it to me?

Not all theists are the same, just as not all atheists are the same. your rants get old and boring. You've shown time and again you do not understand a word of the Bible, and I do blame your childhood priest and parents for that (English teacher as well).

You decided what my reasoning was based on what you perceive the reasoning of all theists to be, whether you say "many" or not. I'm pretty sure you know every word of this.