Indiana Gov signs religious freedom bill......

[shrewsbury]

The Bible is the work of God. It even says so directly in it. To believe otherwise would show that your whole basis is wrong....
2 tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

well then I would suggest knowing some facts, that humans left out of that there Bible, and yes, they did it on purpose.

The "Bible" did not exist until 300 years after Jesus was gone.
Early Christians used numerous works not included in the bible as their guide to know God.
Peter was suppose to be the foundation of the Church, but Paul works are the foundation of the Bible, which is the foundation of the church.
The "bible" was put together by the church with the most power who were under Roman authority.
It took four tries to get the group in power to agree on what would be in the Bible and what would be left out.
Anyone who opposed was excommunicated or worse.
The church sanctioned the burning of all works that they excluded.
The church in power burnt other churches and killed other christians until all had to agree.
Jesus never wrote anything in the Bible.
Jesus never mentions the bible.
God does not write, nor did God write the Bible.
Jesus taught love over all else, acceptance of all, of any race, creed, religion, social/economic class, and all sinners, every one of them.
Jesus turned away no one.
Jesus taught us (well at least some of us) not to cast that first stone.
Jesus taught us that we are all sinners, even you and I.
If you are against homosexuality because it is a sin, then you are against everyone on earth, for we are all sinners. So serve no one, because you will be serving a sinner, even your preacher, mom, dad, and grandma. (same goes for me)

the list goes on, but I have to get back to work.

and here is a quote for you

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

[sanfran22]

Micah saying Bethlehem would be the Jews messiah birthplace. 700 years before it happened. Zacheriah saying Jesus would be betrayed for the price of a slave. The return of Israel. Just read a little of revelations and watch what is happening in Israel. There will be peace followed by destruction.

[sanfran22]

well then I would suggest knowing some facts, that humans left out of that there Bible, and yes, they did it on purpose.

The "Bible" did not exist until 300 years after Jesus was gone.
Early Christians used numerous works not included in the bible as their guide to know God.
Peter was suppose to be the foundation of the Church, but Paul works are the foundation of the Bible, which is the foundation of the church.
The "bible" was put together by the church with the most power who were under Roman authority.
It took four tries to get the group in power to agree on what would be in the Bible and what would be left out.
Anyone who opposed was excommunicated or worse.
The church sanctioned the burning of all works that they excluded.
The church in power burnt other churches and killed other christians until all had to agree.
Jesus never wrote anything in the Bible.
Jesus never mentions the bible.
God does not write, nor did God write the Bible.
Jesus taught love over all else, acceptance of all, of any race, creed, religion, social/economic class, and all sinners, every one of them.
Jesus turned away no one.
Jesus taught us (well at least some of us) not to cast that first stone.
Jesus taught us that we are all sinners, even you and I.
If you are against homosexuality because it is a sin, then you are against everyone on earth, for we are all sinners. So serve no one, because you will be serving a sinner, even your preacher, mom, dad, and grandma. (same goes for me)

the list goes on, but I have to get back to work.

and here is a quote for you

Sadly, I think you are lost. What stone have I cast? Because I want to stand up for what is right? Because I won't make something morally offensive? Everyone on here that dissents has taken the stance that I would refuse service. Reread if you would. I would refuse an item, not the person. There is a difference that the ignorant can't make out. It is no different then making a cake that said, "Go beat your new wife", or "Hail hitler" Is this really a difficult concept or are you as blind as the others to the difference. I should have the right of refusal to take a Job that I find morally objectionable. Should I be forced to make a pro abortion shirt? Can I go into a gay owned business and make the produce an anti gay pamphlet? Should they be able to refuse that job? Go to a grocery store and ask them to make a cake that says "kill all white people". Should they be able to refuse?
I agree Jesus turned away no one, but would he have take the prostitute back to the brothel? Would he have agreed with her choice of lifestyle? He was there to save people, not to placate.
Being against homosexuality does not mean being against the individual. I agree if you are against it, you would be against the other sins as well. But you are putting the sin and the sinner as one. Is that what you believe? Should we accept all the sin as being ok? Or should we try to help and hold accountable when we have the chance. Apparently you are fine with "anything goes" I am not.
It is said in the end times to beware of false teachings. I hope you study and pray on it. It seems alot of what you say doesn't have a basis in scripture.

[DagsJ]

I don't typically like to engage in off-topic non-sports cards discussions but overall, this bill is going to do more harm than good. Putting the talk about the Bible aside and using some common sense, the only people who are going to suffer from this bill are the people who will invoke the right to refuse service.

If service is refused, money and business is loss. If, money and business is loss then the overall profit is less. Speaking strictly from a business standpoint (which I believe was the aim of this bill), the right to refuse service can only hurt the business overall. There will always be another business down the road that won't refuse service, gain that business, and earn that extra bit of money.

Also, businesses are pulling their business out of the state as well as not wanting to travel or partake in activities in Indiana. Because money is heavily involved as a consequence for bill being enacted, I would assume that such bill will be repealed rather quickly to save face in the end. However, the initial damage to the state of Indiana has been done and probably cannot be repaired, from a business standpoint.

From a moral standpoint, there is no argument outside of quoting biblical scripture to the logic of promoting such intolerance with this bill. Sad to see America progress in terms of legalizing gay marriage but then take a step back with promoting government back bills that would allow intolerance. Any person with sensibility knows that deep down there is no need for this bill and should be repealed with unbiased fortitude.

[habsheaven]

Micah saying Bethlehem would be the Jews messiah birthplace. 700 years before it happened. Zacheriah saying Jesus would be betrayed for the price of a slave. The return of Israel. Just read a little of revelations and watch what is happening in Israel. There will be peace followed by destruction.

Where is the record of Jesus' birthplace? Where is the proof Jesus is the messiah? How many other predictions about this event were made that turned out to be wrong in your eyes? Where is the proof of this slave price? You do not even know what Jesus looks like. Once again your only proof of anything is what MEN wrote. MEN that never even lived in Jesus' time. MEN that also didn't even know what he looked like. The return of Israel? Can you quote the actual revelation?

[sanfran22]

Where is the record of Jesus' birthplace? Where is the proof Jesus is the messiah? How many other predictions about this event were made that turned out to be wrong in your eyes? Where is the proof of this slave price? You do not even know what Jesus looks like. Once again your only proof of anything is what MEN wrote. MEN that never even lived in Jesus' time. MEN that also didn't even know what he looked like. The return of Israel? Can you quote the actual revelation?

Here's a start...
http://www.therefinersfire.org/jews_..._to_israel.htm

[habsheaven]

I don't typically like to engage in off-topic non-sports cards discussions but overall, this bill is going to do more harm than good. Putting the talk about the Bible aside and using some common sense, the only people who are going to suffer from this bill are the people who will invoke the right to refuse service.

You don't think the gay couple getting married will be hurt when they are refused service? Both emotionally and financially? Interesting.

If service is refused, money and business is loss. If, money and business is loss then the overall profit is less. Speaking strictly from a business standpoint (which I believe was the aim of this bill), the right to refuse service can only hurt the business overall. There will always be another business down the road that won't refuse service, gain that business, and earn that extra bit of money.

Some smaller communities do not have more than one option at certain services. Some that do, have backwards individuals running both.

Also, businesses are pulling their business out of the state as well as not wanting to travel or partake in activities in Indiana. Because money is heavily involved as a consequence for bill being enacted, I would assume that such bill will be repealed rather quickly to save face in the end. However, the initial damage to the state of Indiana has been done and probably cannot be repaired, from a business standpoint.

Highly unlikely the bill will be repealed. I haven't seen the Governor's news conference yet, but I can't imagine he is going to ruin his photo op with all the Clergy.

From a moral standpoint, there is no argument outside of quoting biblical scripture to the logic of promoting such intolerance with this bill. Sad to see America progress in terms of legalizing gay marriage but then take a step back with promoting government back bills that would allow intolerance. Any person with sensibility knows that deep down there is no need for this bill and should be repealed with unbiased fortitude.

response in bold.

[duane1969]

Clearly most here oppose a Christian business having the right to refuse service to a gay couple. I wonder...

Would you oppose a Jewish cake maker refusing to make this cake? Do you think the Jewish cake maker should be forced to provide the service of making this cake?


Should a black cake maker be forced to make this cake?


Should the family of someone killed on 9/11 be forced to make this cake?


I wonder if you would support a gay cake maker being forced to make a cake with this image on it?


At what point does it become OK for a person's personal feelings and/or beliefs to be squashed for someone else to get what they want?

[sanfran22]

Clearly most here oppose a Christian business having the right to refuse service to a gay couple. I wonder...

Would you oppose a Jewish cake maker refusing to make this cake? Do you think the Jewish cake maker should be forced to provide the service of making this cake?
At what point does it become OK for a person's personal feelings and/or beliefs to be squashed for someone else to get what they want?

The short version of exactly what I was trying to say..... I don't think you should be forced to do anything that doesn't line up with your beliefs or morals. It may be bad business, but one should be able to hold to their convictions.
Also, has anyone actually read any of the bill? It seems to me it was made to make the courts look at religious convictions as a defense. It seems to have a lot of similarities to the fed version of the bill.

[habsheaven]

Here's a start...
http://www.therefinersfire.org/jews_..._to_israel.htm

Sign #1 The Diaspora

Is neither exact or complete.

Sign #2 The Return

Awfully small world they lived in if they consider those areas the 4 quarters of the Earth. Think they would've known how large the world was.

Sign #3 Buying back the land

So they predicted monetary transactions would occur in the future. Wow, amazing stuff!

Sign #4 Born in a day.

Are you implying that the circumstances surrounding the creation of an Israeli state occurred in 1 day. Someone should really read up on their history. Or maybe make the prediction even more awesome by using minute or hour as a time frame and point to the signing ceremony. Ridiculous.

Sign #5 Order of return.

I love the specifics in this one. East, West, North and South. Amazingly they matched general migrations over the years. I wonder how many other of these predictions changed the directional order? None? Of course not.

Sign #6 A pure language
Sign #7 The shekel
Sign #8 Named cities of Israel
Sign #9 Cities excepted - never to be inhabited
Sign #10 From desolation to productivity

These ones are real convincing. A group of people starting a new country, knowing these scriptures and act on them. Kind of doesn't count when the people know the predictions and have the power to realize them. But I don't expect you to see the logic in that.

Those attempts at "fulfilling prophecies" are embarrassing. I hope you have better.