Leaf Signs Nico Hischier to Exclusive Autograph Deal

[30ranfordfan]

I was never an autograph seeker. Honestly, I really don't get the hype over autographs, for two reasons.

1. It's ink on cardboard. Eventually, ink fades.

2. Someone famous signs their name on a picture? Big whoop...he/she eats, sleeps, and breathes like the rest of us and probably doesn't give a flying fadoo if we are alive, except when it comes to producing revenue for something they are/were involved in. Yet, people fall all over themselves to get so-and-so to sign something. They are no better than us; the only difference between me, you, and a famous person is that the famous person earns more money in a year than 90% of us will ever earn in our lifetime.

I say let Nico Hischer and Nolan Patrick sign agreements elsewhere. It will be two less redemptions to chase (you know they would be redemptions!). They will be highly valued regardless of whether they are signed cards or not. An unsigned Eichel FW has consistent value, so does Max Pacioretty and Jonathan Quick.

Yes, I have hundreds of FWAs in my collection. My plain Marian Gaborik FW is as important to my collection as my signed Jonathan Toews FW.

An unsigned card is not the end of the world folks!

I'd shocked if that's true.

1. These guys are not going to be all that highly valued anyway. They're not coming in even with the hype of a Taylor Hall, much less the bigger names of the last few years.

2. Quick & Pacioretty are not fair examples of how well unsigned FW rookies can do in terms of value. They're two of the best examples of what happens when RCs are actually limited though.

Quick, for example, was an after thought when UD was making checklists, and he has fewer than 1600 actual Rookie Cards.... then he goes off and turns into an all star, and wins a couple of Stanley Cups. There are more than enough people that want a RC of his, so demand is high, and supply really low. Prices explode.

If he's got a YG, his FW would be worth half of what it is, maybe.

The actual fair comparison is Eichel... and his RCs sell for a fraction of what he would if it was signed.

[jcharles66]

I personally love the Leaf product and also like the fact that there's a little competition in the market. Check out the In the Game hockey. IMO that's an awesome product. Very well thought out, and affordable. I'm working on several graded Erie Otters McDavid cards for my PC and just generally think that product fits very nicely into the overall hockey product market.

[RGM81]

Going to C&P what I posted over at HI, as it really sums up how I feel about this:

I'm sure that this will come as a surprise to you guys, but you know what? Good on you. Not just for the signing--which you are totally within your realm to do, just as Frameworth is for memorabilia to the exclusion of AJ's, etc.--but because I do think that this move is going to force UD to make some serious decisions about how they approach 2017-18 products.

Having the top two prospects in your camp is a big coup. It is going to affect changes for the upcoming season. You guys get to make cards with autos featuring the top two rookies (assuming they make their respective teams) and hopefully expand your audience.

2012-13 is going to have to be the model for UD this coming year. The lockout essentially forced UD (and Panini, who was still licensed at the time) to focus on veteran content for the limited release schedule because of the extremely limited rookie talent pool. Seriously, go look at the roster of RC's for The Cup that year. Yeesh. But by forcing the licensees to up the ante on their veteran content, some of the nicest sets and checklists this decade appeared in products like SP Authentic--check out Sign of the Times. 63 card checklist and a lot of big-name players because they knew if the set was going to be viable they couldn't rely on Jake Allen and Chris Kreider to move product.

Leaf is now in a spot not unlike a young man named Peter Parker. With great power comes great responsibility. Take advantage of your autograph exclusive and max out on its potential--put out some awesome cards featuring Patrick & Hischier, and get some hard-signed autos in there that really pop and will get people talking.

IMO that was one of the shortcomings of the Eichel exclusive during his rookie year--you guys had full rein for his autos and didn't fully capitalize on it. Too many stickers and even now I see that he's got redemption cards in this year's Metal release. It's the unholy trifecta: unlicensed, stickers, and redemptions. Yeah UD has two of those three issues sprinkled throughout their products, but Eichel is literally your signature guy. Rightly or wrongly, people see that Leaf hitched the wagon to Eichel with that deal so there's an expectation (rightly or wrongly) that you should be able to get on-card autos of him on the regular.

The people that will be most affected by this are collectors. As was pointed out, many of UD's signature-heavy products are now going to feature autograph-less rookies of the top two prospects. Those sets will still be released, they will still sell strongly, people will still buy them and collect the sets. But like Eichel's UD releases, the values of the should-have-been autos will be lowered pretty dramatically and the guys who collect those cards will be left with weird-looking windows on the cards where the auto should be.

So it's up to Leaf to fill that void for those two players. Design some awesome cards and get some sweet ink on them, and force people to be like, "Damn, I want that card!"

2017-18 is going to be a very different type of year in the hobby. Was already a less-than-stellar class that will force some shifting of priorities because there was never going to be McDavid-Mania or Auston 3:16 type fever for these two guys. But Leaf's move here is hopefully going to push both themselves and UD to work a little harder for our dollars.

[canucksfan007]

So it's up to Leaf to fill that void for those two players. Design some awesome cards and get some sweet ink on them, and force people to be like, "Damn, I want that card!"

Unfortunately, without it being a vintage player .... or niche set ..... no matter how nice the card is, hard signed / super limited .... the lack of a license will still trump all of it, ESPECIALLY when its a rookie based card. ITG handled the no licensing very well, focusing on goalies, or the CHL, or Starting 6, or whatever the niche happened to be. Leaf has to learn from ITG, and use the non license in a way that doesn't hurt them. Did Dr. Price ever go out and try and take away NHL signatures from UD? No, he utilized them being in the CHL, or wherever else they played before they got into the PA. Crosby and McDavid autos were very big before they had NHL stuff. ITG capitalized on the pre rookie stuff and did quite well for themselves, and when Crosby went to the PA they still had upcoming non NHL stuff, along with all the niche stuff they were already known for. Leaf, on the other hand, seems to want to directly compete with UD ... which is the dumbest business idea they could come up with because they are simply don't have the same resources and tools to be on UDs level. ITG had a huge following and was far better competition for UD than Leaf will ever be going the direction they are.

[pwaldo]

If no one wants the Leaf autos, why is Upper Deck the one that refuses to call a truce on signing players to exclusives? The people who are mad at Leaf boggle my mind.

The same people who are mad at Leaf in this thread are the same people screaming for more card companies to enter the hockey card market. Hello more companies is going to mean more exclusives. Look back at the early 00s in baseball or the late 00s in basketball to see a fractured market where each company grabbed a couple of guys as an exclusive and you had to buy the respective brand products to have a chance at an autograph from those guys. Those things only went away when a "monopoly" entered the market. So it is childish to think that if Panini, Leaf, Topps, etc were given full licenses that they wouldn't be doing what Leaf is doing now because that's exactly what they would be doing.

[LeafGregg]

Again, sales of ITG the last few years prior to Leaf taking over ended mostly in closeouts.

So, better competition? No. Your idea is for us to just lay down to UD and die? That didn't work for old ITG and we will not back down.

We did a Masked Men product that was very very well received. The last 3 years of Between the Pipes were closeouts that only sold once prices came crashing down.

Dr. Price spent years fighting the battle and went head on with UD plenty. If you recall he signed over 40 current NHLPA players each year, something we don't do. He signed OVECHKIN his rookie season. He did all he could to even the playing field as well.

I appreciate the thought. But we have tools to compete, we just need to be allowed to use them.

You can't just focus on goalies or CHL or any one niche and survive for ever, as good as ITG was, the last 3 years sales proved that.

Change has too occur. If UD didn't think we weren't a larger threat, they wouldn't be doing everything in their power to thwart us. Now taking CHL as well. You are off base

[canucksfan007]

Again, sales of ITG the last few years prior to Leaf taking over ended mostly in closeouts.

So, better competition? No. Your idea is for us to just lay down to UD and die? That didn't work for old ITG and we will not back down.

We did a Masked Men product that was very very well received. The last 3 years of Between the Pipes were closeouts that only sold once prices came crashing down.

Dr. Price spent years fighting the battle and went head on with UD plenty. If you recall he signed over 40 current NHLPA players each year, something we don't do. He signed OVECHKIN his rookie season. He did all he could to even the playing field as well.

I appreciate the thought. But we have tools to compete, we just need to be allowed to use them.

You can't just focus on goalies or CHL or any one niche and survive for ever, as good as ITG was, the last 3 years sales proved that.

Change has too occur. If UD didn't think we weren't a larger threat, they wouldn't be doing everything in their power to thwart us. Now taking CHL as well. You are off base

In all honesty, the last few years of BTP were terrible products. No matter who you are, if you put out crap, it wont sell. No one is telling you to lay down and die ..... just the way you are "fighting back" is hurting the fans and consumers .... and we don't blame UD for that, we blame you.

Also remember, the PA decided to sign exclusively with UD .... im sure there were other hats in the ring, but don't speak like UD is the big bad empire forcing the players to sign with them. Im sure the players understand, 1 company = less autos we have to sign.

Im sorry, you don't have tools. Plain and simple. You don't have the license, you don't have the tools to compete with UD. Until you do get a license, you are foolish to think you can compete with them, all your potential consumers know you cant compete with them without a license .... you are "off base" thinking you can

[LeafGregg]

We will just have to agree to disagree. Just a note, when Upper Deck was awarded the last exclusive. Panini was locked and and no one else given a chance to bid. Not that it would have made a difference. Just the facts.

Stop speaking for others. When you say all people blame us and not UD. That is 100% not the case.

We BEGGED UD to stop with exclusives and they ignore.

Would they have sold one less box, case or card if we had McDavid last year? No chance.
That was a direct shot at us. Don't give me the UD sob story. I know better than anyone how they work.

I worked at Upper Deck for 10 years. I understand how it works.

Our products sell out because we put strong content and keep volumes manageable.

We are also a growing company and don't take kindly being told to know our place in line

[canucksfan007]

"Stop speaking for others. When you say all people blame us and not UD. That is 100% not the case."
- I am stating that people blame your company for not being able to pull Eichel auto rookie cards. They will blame you for Nico and Nolan as well. That is 100% the case

"We BEGGED UD to stop with exclusives and they ignore."
- You are in direct competition with them. The top prize, the number 1 thing your 2 companies compete for is the license. Why would they stop when they've already won? Lets say Leaf won, and UD asked for you to stop, would you?

"Our products sell out because we put strong content and keep volumes manageable."
- Your products sells out because you make the limited quantity your consumer base can handle. You cant mass produce right now, and your company knows it.

"We are also a growing company and don't take kindly being told to know our place in line"
- Know your place in line. You are not the top dog, and without the license you will never be the top dog. You are ruining relations with potential customers down the road when you take away what we want to collect. Leave a sour taste in collectors mouths and they will remember.



The bottom line, do you what you guys want to do. Same with UD. You 2 are not going to go skipping down the road, hand in hand together ... so do all you can to take any slight advantage over the other you can. They will retaliate and grab another player, you will retaliate and grab the next .... just remember you are the little guys. Sure, people can hate UD, people can boycott their company, but in the long run ... for every 1 person who boycotts UD, there are 100 case breakers. That wont change because they hold the exclusive rights to print what the average customer wants. On the other hand, you are the little guys, the up and comers in the hobby. What you do now, is going to effect how successful you are in the future. The path your company has decided to go down, is not making the hobby happy. Sure, you believe it is something you need to do and I wont question you on that. But know this, the average collector does not buy unlicensed products, and is being even more turned off by your company because you are changing the way we want to collect. For all the negativity swirling around UD, there is just as much negative feedback swirling around Leaf for taking away our auto rookies.

[Leafsman]

@LeafGregg - Patrick Roy isnt vintage =S. Also, as said by your customers in this thread, they wont be happy to pull Nico or Nolan in your products.

1 - They do not collect the rookies and therefor do not need / want them in their products

2 - As said by another member, they have little to no re-sale value being in your products. No one really wants them, the wax consumers or the secondary market consumers

@Leafsman - Sorry, did not mean to assume

But, as you stated in your thread, "they were easier for me to acquire than Series I and II cards." So money or availability ( more available = less money ) did impact your decision on what to collect. Sure, you say overall value does not effect you or your collection at all, but you do state that it does ...... and of course it does for every member of this board.

This is ridiculous - "Pick a value and keep it there. None of this "he's hot, jack up the price; he's cold, I won't get my money back". Supply and demand. So what youre telling me is guys that came into the league with very little star power, Rinne / Crawford / Quick to name a few, should still have 20 or lower BV tags because of how they played in 2007, not 2017. Youre telling me Crosby should have the same value now, in 2017, with all hes accomplished ...... compared to when he was a young guy in 2005 with everything to prove.

I dont think you quite understand how markets on EVERYTHING bought and sold work

My point is simply that cards SHOULD NOT be treated on ebay like commodities on a stock market. Period. They are pieces of cardboard, not pieces of real estate. Sure, Crosby's cards should have more value right now, yes. My problem is that I think people take it too far sometimes.

But this is a different topic than the original post. I do think that players signing exclusive deals elsewhere is not a bad thing. Given the players' lack of interest in signing thousands of cards (and I can't blame them there, to be honest), the fact that some players won't have signed products in Upper Deck products doesn't make much difference this year. I think if players are asked to sign fewer cards for (presumably) more money, why wouldn't they?

That's the problem with Upper Deck. Because they have an exclusive agreement, they see dollar signs. They ask players to sign thousands of cards (especially during their rookie year) and it's simply not feasible for the players to do. I used to take the company's side on this, thinking "players should honour their commitments". After seeing what players have to sign, even just in their rookie year, it is truly ridiculous. I recently made a deal for an Oliver Kylington FWA. Admittedly he's no star player, but his burden is mountainous when it comes to what Upper Deck has asked him to sign so far:

So far, he has signed (or been asked to sign) 1831 cards:

499 Fleer Showcase RCs
49 Fleer Showcase Red Glow
15 Fleer Showcase White Hot
999 SP Authentic Future Watch Auto RCs
5 SPx Rookies Black
165 SPx Rookies Blue
99 SPx Rookies Gold
No specified print run of O-Pee-Chee Platinum Retro Rainbow Black - I suspect only one

This does not include the other inevitable RCs he might sign, like 249 for The Cup and the signed rainbow variations, Limited Logos, Signature Patches, Inked Rookie Sweaters...and collectors wonder why there are redemptions!!

I can understand why they put in minimal effort and call it autographed (or why they don't sign at all). Many times, a player has a nice signature, but due to the enormous amount of cards they are asked to sign, they often shorten their signature to their first and last initials. No wonder!

@LeafGregg How many cards do you ask a given player to sign?